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norvel 074 conversion issue

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Old 07-09-2013, 06:06 PM
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Default norvel 074 conversion issue

OK guys my 074 Norvel fitted with a conversion head compression on original low got a new piston and liner, still not great, hand start no way, will run with a starter 'Do not know
if this is a revlite liner or not was thinking of blocking off some fins to get the temp up to " glow temperature" if it is on a few runs also lost the muffler if any one has a spare
from a junker let me know regards martin
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Old 07-09-2013, 07:55 PM
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Default RE: norvel 074 conversion issue

Martin,

Does it run as a glow?

Greg
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:50 AM
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Default RE: norvel 074 conversion issue

Quote:
ORIGINAL: AMB
...Do not know if this is a revlite liner or not...
martin
Martin,

If I remember correctly the .074 was released after NORVEL switched to Revlite. AFAIK there are no pre-revlite .074's. As far as blocking some fins, diesel runners have done this for many years for winter operation. I think most use aluminum foil.

Good luck with it.

George
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:01 AM
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Default RE: norvel 074 conversion issue

Martin, Is all this stuff worth messing with?
Any properly made diesel runs, no problem, without all this hassle and debate. You'd get a better result with any PAW.

If you want a diesel... there are plenty around. I feel that you're just creating problems for yourself.
OK, you tried messing around with an engine and it doesn't appear to have worked...
You have the choice of continuing to beat your head against the wall, or put the engine back the way it was... or junk it...

Sorry to sound a bit negative, but I run all my diesels except fixed compression, all through the European winter, sometimes in snow, and I never have this kind of hassle...
If your engine doesn't want to run in normal ambient temperatues it's not really of any practical use.
Here's a Speed Demon roaring away, in the snow, with one or two flick starting.
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:19 AM
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Default RE: norvel 074 conversion issue

Broken English You must have reading my mind I have lots of smaller ones 049 Cox conversions OS and TT 10S davis heads PAWs MP jets 061s, MVVS 15Ds, Shamas an AP 09,even and ASP 12
conversion and no issues good selection of the smaller ones not worth the hassle messing with it martin
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Old 07-10-2013, 07:39 AM
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Default RE: norvel 074 conversion issue

Here's another one.
Remember a while ago, we had a guy asking whether diesels really start first flick... Of course they do... Or should!
That question prompted me to pull this video out of the memory of my wife's telephone.
If an engine won't start reliably in a few seconds, try another engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jooo_YHYkzQ
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Old 07-10-2013, 08:12 AM
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Default RE: norvel 074 conversion issue

WELL I can flip and start varies 1-5 still damn good no long hassels fuel-flip-start, you must have the prime down right I may overdo it regards martin

on the 049-051 davis conversions next up 061D MP Jet, after getting one, bought 2 more while still available, my CS and Norvel saga not good
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Old 07-10-2013, 01:08 PM
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Default RE: norvel 074 conversion issue

GREG it Was run on a few tanks on glow compression did not come up martin
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Old 07-10-2013, 03:44 PM
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Default RE: norvel 074 conversion issue

FWIW, I haven't run my converted .074 since I got it from Greg aside from burping it a few times on the prime but I don't recall it being a hard starter at all. No more than any other engine I have...

Norvel .074's are famous for bending rods due to the cylinder pinch, check to see that this hasn't happened to you. This would lower the compression and explain the hard starting and low RPM you are seeing.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:02 PM
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Default RE: norvel 074 conversion issue

Dave With head off we are getting a full stroke, checked rod its ok and have to be careful not to strike piston with contra on AJs head piston at top of cylinder just bad compression
a real piston to cylinder seal leaker no top pinch at all martin
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Old 07-10-2013, 11:35 PM
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Default RE: norvel 074 conversion issue

Quote:
ORIGINAL: AMB

Dave With head off we are getting a full stroke, checked rod its ok and have to be careful not to strike piston with contra on AJs head piston at top of cylinder just bad compression
a real piston to cylinder seal leaker no top pinch at all martin

Martin.

is this one of the Norvels with a screw in retaining ring that locates the head button?

If so does it have a Copper gasket?

Ray
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:10 AM
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Default RE: norvel 074 conversion issue

RAY screw in head ala cox style one copper head gasket passed water glass test upside down in glass no leaks martin
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:39 AM
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Default RE: norvel 074 conversion issue


Quote:
ORIGINAL: AMB

RAY screw in head ala cox style one copper head gasket passed water glass test upside down in glass no leaks martin
Sometimes the Norvel screw in heads and the gaskets have leaking issues. Not so if it passed the head in the glass of water test then.

Is the cylinder base gasket of normal thickness? If it had two gaskets it could explain the lack of pinch in a new p/l.

Cab you send the engine to the diesel head maker for a checkup?

Very mysterious!

Ray
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Old 07-11-2013, 05:06 PM
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Default RE: norvel 074 conversion issue

Hi Folks,

I'm certainly no engine expert, but I mentioned this before.

I have a Norvel Big Mig Revlite .061 that has exactly the same loss of compression, and I think it's because I attempted to do the run-in with the NV diesel head installed. It should have been run-in on glow fuel first, with a smaller prop to allow it to rev up quickly, as the instructions suggest.

Norvels are known for their tight piston fits, and some of mine have special instructions on how to free them up before the first runs, by turning them over many times with the head removed, and lots of lube on the piston. I always considered that as foolishness, because it's almost impossible to get them up to running temp by flipping the prop, or even using a drill press to spin the engine over.

My theory is that performing the run-in as a diesel, does not allow them to reach normal operating temperatures, and particularly with the Revlite cylinders! The larger fins give lots of extra cooling, but running as a diesel at even lower than normal temperatures, never allows the piston/cylinder fit required for proper run-in. The results may be very rapid wear of the piston, and/or cylinder walls, not to mention possible big end wear!

Martin, if you bought that replacement cylinder/piston set from NV, it's possible they will send you a new set. Sure worth asking.

Bill
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Old 07-11-2013, 06:06 PM
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Default RE: norvel 074 conversion issue

Bill THX for the info the new one , piston/liner had NO pinch at top , cold just turning by hand with the head on and back plate off and turning lots of blowby and lubed with fuel
just a loose fit martin
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Old 07-12-2013, 02:41 AM
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Default RE: norvel 074 conversion issue


Quote:
ORIGINAL: AMB

Bill THX for the info the new one , piston/liner had NO pinch at top , cold just turning by hand with the head on and back plate off and turning lots of blowby and lubed with fuel
just a loose fit martin
Sounds like you had a bad P/L fit to start with Martin.
I agree with Bill on his post though.
It's my belief that All glow engines that are to be converted to diesel should be run in as glows first.
The P/L seats in better and you should then have no trouble with running engines/s as diesels.

Fredo

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Old 07-12-2013, 08:12 AM
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Default RE: norvel 074 conversion issue


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Bill Adair

Hi Folks,

I'm certainly no engine expert, but I mentioned this before.

I have a Norvel Big Mig Revlite .061 that has exactly the same loss of compression, and I think it's because I attempted to do the run-in with the NV diesel head installed. It should have been run-in on glow fuel first, with a smaller prop to allow it to rev up quickly, as the instructions suggest.

Norvels are known for their tight piston fits, and some of mine have special instructions on how to free them up before the first runs, by turning them over many times with the head removed, and lots of lube on the piston. I always considered that as foolishness, because it's almost impossible to get them up to running temp by flipping the prop, or even using a drill press to spin the engine over.

My theory is that performing the run-in as a diesel, does not allow them to reach normal operating temperatures, and particularly with the Revlite cylinders! The larger fins give lots of extra cooling, but running as a diesel at even lower than normal temperatures, never allows the piston/cylinder fit required for proper run-in. The results may be very rapid wear of the piston, and/or cylinder walls, not to mention possible big end wear!

Martin, if you bought that replacement cylinder/piston set from NV, it's possible they will send you a new set. Sure worth asking.

Bill
My .074 never turned in anger prior to being converted and run as a diesel. The pre-break-in regimen was brought on to help fix the problem of people bending rods by getting them stuck on top when trying to get them started. I have close to a dozen .074's, all are tighter than a skydiving student's butt-including one that has several hours on it as a glow motor in a high RPM setup.

I suspect that the engine in question just had a sloppy fit to start with. They might have put a helicopter piston/cyl on the motor toward the end of their business run, those were not tight like the airplane motors were.
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Old 07-12-2013, 03:49 PM
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Default RE: norvel 074 conversion issue

Quote:
ORIGINAL: DeviousDave
I suspect that the engine in question just had a sloppy fit to start with. They might have put a helicopter piston/cyl on the motor toward the end of their business run, those were not tight like the airplane motors were.
Devious, I think that you've got it exactly right.

The earlier Norvel p/l's had really tight fits that after running in made them excellent hot hand starters.

The downside was that this also meant that the running in process was long and painful.

The monumental pinch has gone from the newer versions.

Clearly Norvel responded to consumer complaints and loosened up on fits because they just don't hand start hot anymore.

I'm convinced that NV is mostly selling off old stock and concentrating on making high volume products like the new gas powered 40.

Martin's new p/l was probably from the "bottom of the barrel" as they run down stocks.

Martin why don't you pop off an email off to NV complaining bitterly about the quality of the item?

It would be interesting to see their reaction.

Ray
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Old 07-12-2013, 06:25 PM
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Default RE: norvel 074 conversion issue

Gazimoto good idea the piston/liner I got from them a waste of money. Did get an email from them months ago saying they were going to send me an 074 as a diesel for my evaluation that never happened, never produced my guess they are full tilt on the gas 40 martin
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Old 07-14-2013, 06:41 PM
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Default RE: norvel 074 conversion issue

Go easy on Norvel guys, they are not even close to the same company they were. Most of the talent had to move on to jobs that pay the bills, no idea what relation the current guys are to who ran it before and it they are businessmen or engine designers or what. I do know that when you need something from them it can take a while.... I recently needed two AME .15 R/C carbs. I had the importer inquire about availability of these at the factory in Russia and didn't hear back for quite some time. Then one day I got an email saying the carbs were ready...... and that they had to make them specially for me. Now, that would flatter most people but I work in the machine trades... The setup time alone wouldn't have been paid for in making my two carbs. I was pretty blown away by that. I was supplied with 2 needle carbs that were hand made and looked great-the stock carbs were single needle!

To the extent they can, NV Engines seems like they want to make people who buy their products happy. Given that the people who used to run the machines are gone, the machinery is gone, etc. Some things are possible to make people happy, some are not. I've got an issue with one of the new glow/gas motors that I am not going to address with them because I know they can't fix it because they can't/didn't make the part, and it won't hurt performance if I leave it alone. They are TRYING and that is what counts at a time when there are no new engines in smaller sizes on the market.

If they say they are supplying a new piston/cylinder, it will come. Things move slowly-you guys probably don't know this but they didn't have heat in the old Norvel plant and probably don't at the new place they are building/assembling motors. It's COLD in that part of the country and they turned out fantastic little engines that made good on the promises made by cheap bar stock engines designed in the 1960's.
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Old 07-14-2013, 06:46 PM
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Default RE: norvel 074 conversion issue


Quote:
ORIGINAL: AMB

Gazimoto good idea the piston/liner I got from them a waste of money. Did get an email from them months ago saying they were going to send me an 074 as a diesel for my evaluation that never happened, never produced my guess they are full tilt on the gas 40 martin
The heads still haven't been made. I don't think they have their own lathe, so investment in new parts probably has to be paid for with engine sales for product they already have on hand. The 1/2A heads are really nice and work well, I'm excited for the .074 head to come.
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Old 07-15-2013, 01:27 AM
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Default RE: norvel 074 conversion issue


Quote:
ORIGINAL: DeviousDave

Go easy on Norvel guys, they are not even close to the same company they were. Most of the talent had to move on to jobs that pay the bills, no idea what relation the current guys are to who ran it before and it they are businessmen or engine designers or what. I do know that when you need something from them it can take a while.... I recently needed two AME .15 R/C carbs. I had the importer inquire about availability of these at the factory in Russia and didn't hear back for quite some time. Then one day I got an email saying the carbs were ready...... and that they had to make them specially for me. Now, that would flatter most people but I work in the machine trades... The setup time alone wouldn't have been paid for in making my two carbs. I was pretty blown away by that. I was supplied with 2 needle carbs that were hand made and looked great-the stock carbs were single needle!

To the extent they can, NV Engines seems like they want to make people who buy their products happy. Given that the people who used to run the machines are gone, the machinery is gone, etc. Some things are possible to make people happy, some are not. I've got an issue with one of the new glow/gas motors that I am not going to address with them because I know they can't fix it because they can't/didn't make the part, and it won't hurt performance if I leave it alone. They are TRYING and that is what counts at a time when there are no new engines in smaller sizes on the market.

If they say they are supplying a new piston/cylinder, it will come. Things move slowly-you guys probably don't know this but they didn't have heat in the old Norvel plant and probably don't at the new place they are building/assembling motors. It's COLD in that part of the country and they turned out fantastic little engines that made good on the promises made by cheap bar stock engines designed in the 1960's.

If you need Norvel/NV 15 or 25 R/C carbies drop me a PM. I have a few just lying around in a box.

Ray
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