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  1. #1
    karel47's Avatar
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    IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    i've bought this one from a familymember for 400 euro ... a good bargain when you know its for sale here for 800 euro in our shops in europe ...

    i remember some of you complained about the wrong body tamiya was delivering into the M51 FO package , i did some study around it and it seem to right what tamiya brings out , look at this link further in my tread !

    β˜…This is a 1/16 scale R/C assembly kit of the M51 “Super Sherman” and features a superb realistic finish. β˜…The dynamic form of the tank, including the long main gun fitted with a massive muzzle brake and the extended turret, has been reproduced in rich detail. β˜…The tank features a realistic tank maneuverability and recoil effects. β˜…4-channel transmitter & receiver, battery pack, and charger sold separately.
    Tamiya 1/16 Super Sherman Tank Kit. Tamiya has expertly recreated the M-51 Super Shermans in this 1/16 scale Super Sherman Tank Kit.
    Features:
    1/16 R/C assembly kit of the Super Sherman.
    Includes DMD Control Unit (T-08) and DMD Multi-Function Unit (MF-07) which enable turret rotation, gun elevation/depression, and realistic sound and vibration actions.
    Exciting sound effects accompany engine operations, turret rotation, gun barrel elevation and depression.
    Metal parts such as lower hull, suspension arms, and drive sprockets included.
    Aluminum gun barrel.
    The gun barrel features recoil effects.
    Front-mounted, pre-assembled gearboxes with type 380 motors.
    Requires 4-channel transmitter with self-neutral function (Futaba Attack T4VWD is recommended), battery pack, and eight AA batteries for transmitter.
    Install separately available Battle System (Item 53447) to enjoy 1 vs 1 or team tank battles with other Tamiya 1/16 R/C tanks.
    During the 1960's, the Israeli Ordnance Corps upgraded their aging Sherman Tanks by equipping it with the powerful French 105mm CN-105-F1 tank gun. The gun barrel length was shortened by 1.5m to improve overall greater balance and a muzzle brake was also fitted to minimize the recoil effect.
    In 1967, during the Six-Day War, the Super Sherman found itself fighting against newer T-54/55 tanks as well as JS-3 tanks from Egyptian, Iraqi, and Syrian armies. The M-51's 105mm gun could take on these adversaries by using HEAT ammunition. After the war, these M-51 Super Shermans continued to serve with distinction until they were finally retired in the early 1980s
    the older sherman with 105mm howitzer has no recoil , this one has ... very awesome

  2. #2
    karel47's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    the boxart of the tamiya is as always very stuning at least to say ...

    details
    the famousdmd en mf modules !!!

  3. #3
    karel47's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    most forums claimed the tamiyabody isn't right for the supersherman, look at this pics , its all correct even with HVSS boogies
    The only tank model designated Super Sherman by the IDF was M4A1 with 76 mm M1 gun and HVSS suspension, which was named Super Sherman M-1
    now we know this , its cleared for ever ... :shock: :cool :roll:
    History
    In 1953, an Israeli delegation visited France to examine the new AMX 13 light tank. The tank was armed with the high-velocity 75 mm gun CN 75-50, a development of the German 7.5 cm KwK 42 L/70 (used in the Panther tank). While the gun was satisfactory, the armor of the French tank was considered too light. Eventually, Israel did purchase the AMX 13, however in a parallel development it was decided to graft the powerful French gun onto the available, familiar and better-armored hull of the American M4 Sherman, the standard tank of the IDF armored units in the early 1950s.[1]
    The project started in 1954, and in 1955 a prototype turret was sent from France to Israel.[2] In March 1956 Israeli Ordnance Corps facilities started to convert tanks, using guns received from France.[3] The gun was known in Israel as the M-50 and as a result the upgunned Sherman was designated Sherman M-50.[2] The M-50 was similar to the Sherman Firefly in that it had the original turret of the "old" type (as used by the 75 mm gun M3 armed Shermans), which was fitted with a large counterweight at the rear end.
    The first 50 units were based on M4A4 hulls, had a Continental R-975 gasoline engine and VVSS suspension. However, the increased weight of the vehicle combined with narrow tracks led to poor off-road mobility. It was also putting too much strain on the engine, resulting in frequent mechanical failures. Consequently, for the rest of the conversions, hulls fitted with HVSS suspension and Cummins V-8 460 horsepower (340 kW) diesel engine were adopted.[4] These subvariants were sometimes referred to as the M-50 Continental and M-50 Cummins. Diesel engines were also preferred since diesel fuel is less flammable than gasoline, which factors into battlefield survivability.[5] In total, about 300 M-50s were built by 1964 (though it's possible that this number includes 120 155 mm self-propelled guns on Sherman chassis, also designated M-50).[6]
    The same gun was also fitted to a number of M10 Wolverine tank destroyers.[7]
    In the 1960s, 180 Sherman tanks received the even more powerful French 105 mm Modèle F1 gun. The gun was reduced from 56 caliber to 44 and was equipped with a muzzle brake; ammunition was altered to use a smaller cartridge. In Israel the gun was designated M-51 and the tank the Sherman M-51. M4A1 hulls and "new" turrets (from 76 mm armed Shermans) were used for the conversion. All tanks were fitted with Cummins diesel engines and HVSS suspension. The tank was displayed to the public for the first time during the Independence Day ceremony in 1965.[8]
    Abroad the M-50 was known as Super Sherman (the "Continental" variant as Mark I and the "Cummins" variant as Mark II) and the M-51 as either Super Sherman or Isherman (i.e. Israeli Sherman). These designation were never used in Israel. The only tank model designated Super Sherman by the IDF was M4A1 with 76 mm M1 gun and HVSS suspension, which was named Super Sherman M-1.[9]

  4. #4
    karel47's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    Service history
    Captured Egyptian M4A4 with FL-10 Turret.
    The first 25 M-50s were finished just in time for the Operation Kadesh in the Sinai against the Egyptian Army[10] (which also employed its own up-gunned version of the M-4, fitted with the AMX-13 turret, making it equal to the M-50 in firepower).
    In 1964, Israel started to divert water from the Sea of Galilee to the Negev Desert for agricultural purposes. The Arab nations were in uproar, and Syria began a project to divert water into Jordan (the Headwater Diversion Plan). Maj General Israel Tal had trained Israeli tank gunners to shoot beyond 1,500 metres (1,600 yd) and, on March 6, 1965, an M-50, commanded by Tal, engaged a Syrian recoilless rifle that had killed an Israeli tractor driver; Tal personally destroyed the recoilless rifle at long range. A few days later, General Tal, with an M-50 and a Centurion Mk III tank, was waiting for a chance to fire upon the Syrian water diverting project. When Syrian gunners fired on a border patrol, Tal's M50 and the Centurion fired on eight tractors 2,000 metres (2,200 yd) away, and destroyed them all in two minutes with 10 shots - Tal destroyed 5 tractors with his M-50's 75 mm gun, and the Centurion destroyed the remainder.[11]
    Both the M-50 and M-51 saw combat in the Six-Day War that left the Golan Heights, the West Bank and the Sinai peninsula in Israeli hands, often fighting Soviet World War II-era armor like the T-34-85 (for example at the Battle of Abu-Ageila). Both were also employed in the 1973 Yom Kippur War alongside and against much more modern tanks. The use of such seemingly obsolete tanks was necessary given the desperate nature of the fighting.
    In combat against the Arab armies, the M-51 proved itself capable of fighting newer, heavier tanks like the Soviet-built T-54/55/T-62. The M-51's 105 mm gun could penetrate these adversaries using HEAT ammunition. The M-51 served well during its time, and is regarded as an excellent example of how an obsolete tank (the Sherman) can be upgraded beyond the limits of its original capabilities.[12]
    M-50 Continentals were retired by 1972. The M-50 Cummins and M-51 were gradually phased out in late 1970s - early 1980s. During the Lebanese Civil War, a total of 75 M-50s were given to the Israeli-supported Christian militias – Kataeb Regulatory Forces (19), Tigers Militia (20), Guardians of the Cedars (1), the Lebanese Forces (40), and the South Lebanon Army (35) – in 1976; two tanks were later captured by the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), which they employed in the defense of West Beirut during the June 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon.[13]
    Many tanks were also sold to Chile, and some of those were fitted with 60 mm HVMS gun and are often referred to as M-60. This variant was never used by the IDF.[14]
    The few M-51s that Israel retained were converted into engineer vehicles and self-propelled artillery

  5. #5
    karel47's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    the first ones had VVSS boogies but lateron the HVSS used the same body's again



    read the red colum in the last foto, the israeli military seldom used the term M51 and Supersherman, mostly they were called M50

  6. #6
    mcovalsk's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    Kerel47, what a mess you have done confusing the M50 at Latrum and others with the M51. ( and this is not a language mistake as you always adduce)
    IDF never named the tanks super sherman, this was a nick as Sherman was done for the M4...etc. All them are usually called super sherman, but there are M1 VVSS 76 radial engine, M50 VVSS and HVSS 75 and M51 105 welded ( few ) and cast hull Cummins engine.... and many other of course, as 105 VVSS, M4A1E8...etc etc.

    I have spent hours and hours to understand about the M50 and M51 IDF versions.
    My research showed me that the tanks Tamiya reproduced was a prototype just to test the M51 turret ( yes the tanks name came from the turret name), never was a operative tank with M51 turret and radial engine and all the boxes that are wrong placed and there a LOT of mistakes and omissions as the travel lock that is not present, they placed the old 105 one, that the prototype neither used.

    I'm NOT a rivet counter but I strongly recommend to buy some book from time to time.

    I made 3 tanks two M51 and one M50 HVSS, please read to know what they were.

    http://www.modelersite.com/en/2040/b...kit-1-16-scale
    http://www.modelersite.com/en/2048/b...man-1-16-scale

    Cheers!
    Mario Covalski
    Editor Modelersite

  7. #7
    karel47's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    i admit its not my kind of league, not realy interested in yhe history either, want just made a perfect copy of the tamiya one

    thanks for the explanation, so the one of the link with the olivedrap on it seems a good example to go for it

    my the tread was build into flemish, i translate it as good as it can, but i know there were faults into it ... forgive me thats why i posted on some forums to get help

    thanks in advance Mcovalsk, much apreciated

  8. #8
    pattoncommander's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    Karel, The Tamiya M-51 may sound and run better, but there are many gross errors in Tamiys's model. First off, The track towage is wrong; earlier 51s had some spare track on the sponson by the driver and BOG, later on the turret , NOT both...there should be no travel lock mounts on the bow, but Tamiya failed to remove them, as well as totally ignoring the huge gun travel lock that dominates the engine deck on the real M-51. . There is no cover on the horn bracket and the sponson stowage boxes are wrong as is the color of the oil cans...they should be black. All M-51s are not alike as they were converted as they came in, with varying sizes in some stowage boxes, but 51s had two boxes on the either side. A very few initial 51s were made using the 105 howitzer turret, which required the addition of a large mantlet extension box, but the great majority used a highly modifed T-23 turret due to needed space for the modified D 1504 L-44 105mm. No M-51s were made on VVSS chasis. The added weight of the 105mm gun/ammo and modified turret was too much for the VVSS. Most of the photos you show are M-50s, which is a totally different tank, with the CN 75-50 75mm gun and using both HHVS and VVSS systems. How can you compare the M-51 by showing a different tank? In 1960, Cummins dielsels were received and most by 1965 M-50s were upgraded and the work was concentrated on M-51s. By 1973, most all M-51s had the new Cummins diesel except for a couple reserve units which still had the radial engine. Some 51s had the welded A3 or A4 hull but most were converted using the A1 chassis. A further error was a sales ploy by Tamiya of naming the M-51 "Super Sherman". The only Super Sherman in israel was the M-1 M-4A1 76mm (dagem aleph echad 76) with either suspension system. Tamiya's M-51 dies not represent any particular M-51....even a prototype but is a mix of ideas thrown in to modify the old 105 Sherman to offer a different tank. Trying to figure the IDF armor history is a vacation into frustration. In many cases due to wars etc, no accurate records were kept and this really hurts where you try to tie down a particular tank by it make and stowage. Tamiya did not add the manadtory black metal ID plates on the bow rear and sides which aids in proper ID.

    The best book on Israeli armor is Tom Gannon's "Israeli Sherman". Concord Armor at War series has a couple good paperbacks 7008 (1) The Wars of 1948-1973. Forget trying to get historic info from Latrun..only way is to go there as you will reveive no reply in English or Hebrew. I have friends in the 188th Barak Bde, but they are busy on the Syrian and Egyptian borders now and have no time.

    HL M-26, M-46, M-41B, T-34/85, IDF M-51 (2)

  9. #9
    karel47's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    this seems not so easy to archieve the right model ... a big question afterall

    thanks for the explaining commander , i knew i heard it before but was not realy interested then ... was not planned to buy this one but on this price ...

    would it be possible to make an easy eight from it , when changing the mantlets ... or is the turret shape too different for that guy's ?

  10. #10
    karel47's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    if i choose this one , is a wellknown internet IDF pic can fix the faults wrong calliote but fixable ... and the muffler , is this a M51?


  11. #11
    pattoncommander's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    Karel, The turret is really good on the Tammy...only the chassis has to be corrected. Move the spare tracks off the turret, remove the travel lock brackets, make a cover for the horn, a travel lock for the rear and best would be to modify the engine deck for the Cummins diesel. Make ID plates for front and sides. The turret is way too modified to be remade back into a T-23. If you don't have Gannon's book, I'd be happy to email you some photos of these areas. All the hard work has been done..,,.that turret is a real bugger to build and the chassis work is not all that bad. M-51 is a mean looking tank with a great reputation as a tank killer.. Looks like you got a good deal so good luck on the mods. On the plates, the IDF number begins with Χ¦ = tsadi ( on the right) but you can make this easy using an N or K.

    On your photo from Latrun...what you are looking at is an M-50.....not M-51....you'd have to change the gun and mantlet and you have a good M-51 turret on the Tammy tank. All you need is some chassis modification. The M-50's 75mm muzzle brake is LOTS easier to make than that huge 105mm but if you want to make an M-50, I'd buy the 105 gun from you for my next one.
    HL M-26, M-46, M-41B, T-34/85, IDF M-51 (2)

  12. #12
    karel47's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    you ment this one ?



    these adjustment aren't hard to do thanks for the info , yes the M51 is a real mean killer

    it has the rear cover from the easy eight i understand ? would be a great help to get some foto's

  13. #13
    mcovalsk's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    Here you have all the information about how to modify bthe Tamiya to get both versions: M51 47Β° welded hull ( the Tamiya one) and the M51 cast hull ( nick Aguilar one).... step by step.
    http://www.modelersite.com/en/2040/b...kit-1-16-scale

    No special materilas are neccesary others than some aftreparts from Axelmodelbaun.
    Mario Covalski
    Editor Modelersite

  14. #14
    pattoncommander's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    That's a good one. I built my Tammato M-51 on this model with the added stowage box on the side of the turret. I think you can see the difference between the 50 and 51...The huge 105mm gun and muzzle brake is so much different from the 75mm gun as well as a lot of diff in the mantlets. There were different ones on some M-50s. I tried to send PM or email but could get in. send me a PM with your email and I'll send some photos.

    Mario has the right solution....the modification kit will save a lot of work. Great idea. Thanks for posting, Mario, that's a big time saver.

    Bill
    HL M-26, M-46, M-41B, T-34/85, IDF M-51 (2)

  15. #15
    karel47's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    thanks mario and bill , you got me interested in this matter , these models were high end conversions wel done

    i think i gonna choose this one real nice M51 mario, converted with skill !


  16. #16
    mcovalsk's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    From the Gannon's Book I took this picture. The shot was taken in some place of Jesuralem probably during the Yon Kippur war. Both M51 tanks belong the same platoon and have the same configuration. The left one was converted from a 47Β° welded probbably M4 or M4A3 (exactly the one offered by Tamiya) and the left one from a cast hull M4A1 with extended sponsons. As usual both turrets are the same and were converted from the T23 turret.

    I couldn't add this picture in my article due to copyrights and was not able to contact the publishers. I don't use to uplod pictures taken from books but I fell this one is very importan as not many M51 were made from welded hulls.

    Other picture that was taken from Internet, very well know, shows a M51 47Β° welded hull, very clearly.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Mario Covalski
    Editor Modelersite

  17. #17
    karel47's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    nice pics mario! despite the the hull's its almost identical the outfit i assume ?

    that hook on the front what was the use of it ? Sometihng special, its only seen on IDF tanks ...

    great info guy's

    on youtube the M51 motornoise of the tamiya model seems the same as the old ones despite the other MF module in the kit, maybe i can do some adjustments to the speaker so it sound a little different, replacing the speaker could also give a little change in motorsound ...

  18. #18
    Panther F's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    ORIGINAL: karel47

    on youtube the M51 motornoise of the tamiya model seems the same as the old ones despite the other MF module in the kit, Β*maybe i can do some adjustments to the speaker so it sound a little different, replacing the speaker could also give a little change in motorsound ...Β*

    I cut down a Tamiya Pershing speaker box for my M4A1E8 (that has a 76MM) to change the effect of the 105MM howitzer sound and I think it sounds different than my M4 105 Sherman.

    Just an option.



    ~ Jeff
    Building the British Sherman Mk.III ~ Mid Production Sicily

  19. #19
    karel47's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    thanks jeff good thought also !!!

  20. #20
    pattoncommander's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    Karel, that hook was designed to carry a roll of razor wire, but many units carried the rolls lower near the fender or on the rear to prevent injury to the crew entering or exiting the tank over the bow plate.
    HL M-26, M-46, M-41B, T-34/85, IDF M-51 (2)

  21. #21
    Panther F's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    All this talk about the IDF and Super Shermans makes me think I want one too now.


    Razor wire... REALLY?



    ~ Jeff
    Building the British Sherman Mk.III ~ Mid Production Sicily

  22. #22
    pattoncommander's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    Yeah really Jeff....do you think the IDF would use old fashioned barbed wire over something that is many times more effective?
    We used it in Nam and it's standard USA issue over barbed wire...so what's your beef with it ? That's the reason most IDF tanks altered the proposed stowage location to prevent crew injuries. US Army terminology is razor wire wheras concertina or barbed wire is no longer used.
    HL M-26, M-46, M-41B, T-34/85, IDF M-51 (2)

  23. #23
    karel47's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    so the same hook was placed in fieldconversion on the back near the fenders ?


    ORIGINAL: pattoncommander

    Karel, that hook was designed to carry a roll of razor wire, but many units carried the rolls lower near the fender or on the rear to prevent injury to the crew entering or exiting the tank over the bow plate.

  24. #24
    pattoncommander's Avatar
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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    Nothing that I have seen....most tanks looped the wire rolls over the lifting eye and strapped it in place. In photos, many units had a standard stowage location either locked onto the lifting eye on the driver's side or mostly one of the rear lifting eyes. Razor wire is very nasty, even with thick, leather issued gloves, so best to keep it out of the way. The hook welded onto the bow plate just placed the roll in a very bad place and I have only seen a couple photos with wire stowed there.
    HL M-26, M-46, M-41B, T-34/85, IDF M-51 (2)

  25. #25

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    RE: IDF Sherman 1/16 Tamiya FO M51

    Karel the definitive guide to the M51 here

    http://www.rctankregiment.com/rctank...php?f=9&t=2531

    M1 Sherman http://www.rctankregiment.com/rctank...php?f=9&t=3972

    And the M50

    http://www.rctankregiment.com/rctank...php?f=9&t=2555

    hope tht helps you if not drop nigel a pm he has done loads of research on them


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