Can KingTech Turbines Up the thrust in there current modle like JetCat?
03-03-2016, 10:39 AM
#1
Can KingTech Turbines Up the thrust in there current modle like JetCat?
I know at the end of the day its about selling motors, but one of the things I have always liked about Jetcat is as new modles came up there were options of updateding your current modles of turbines so you were not so left behind for a Co$t.
Ie: Can KingTech up the thrust on the K140G as its currently at 31 pounds but its the same size as the K170-180G for the same size and weight.
It would be really nice as the K140G is now huge for its current thrust output, if we could get it bumped up to 34 pounds or at K170 output for an exstra 1k that would make it a sweet deal once again...
I know Evo-Jets dose this, and AMT have also done this..
What you guys think?
Ie: Can KingTech up the thrust on the K140G as its currently at 31 pounds but its the same size as the K170-180G for the same size and weight.
It would be really nice as the K140G is now huge for its current thrust output, if we could get it bumped up to 34 pounds or at K170 output for an exstra 1k that would make it a sweet deal once again...
I know Evo-Jets dose this, and AMT have also done this..
What you guys think?
Last edited by mikes68charger; 03-03-2016 at 10:43 AM.
03-03-2016, 08:38 PM
#2
I have never owned a Jetcat motor that got more powerful through an update. A Jetcat 120 is not going to get 160 power. Regarding Kingtech, you would have better luck contacting them directly.
03-04-2016, 07:38 AM
#3
I was talking to a few guys on the phone about this, and its crazy if you think about it.
I know the Evo Jet thing made some people upset because you could buy there 140 size motor and have it bumped up to a 160 size or detune it to a 120 size as it was the same motor and pump set up as it was all in the program. But when you look at King Tech its hard not to think the K140 wich is the same exact size and weight as the 170 could not be turned up if the $ was right.
03-04-2016, 09:01 AM
#5
Just like it would be sweet to have the option if you already have a K100 and need a K160 for 1k you could have the flexibility of getting it upgraded.
03-04-2016, 10:14 AM
#7
When the first P120 came out it was a wopping 19pounder and over the years its now able to be updated to a 29-30 pounder,
Last edited by grbaker; 03-04-2016 at 12:38 PM.
03-04-2016, 10:39 AM
#9
My Feedback: (57)
I don't think it's a matter of just "bumping up" the RPMs on a 140 to make it a 170, but internal components which are different; and if that's the case, it's probably not cost-efficient for the end user to spend almost what it would cost for a new engine. The can, front cover, cables and "bumped up" ECU is what could be re-used; but I could be wrong. Barry or Dirk would have chime in as to the differences between like engines (140/170, 180/210).
03-05-2016, 02:21 PM
#10
Yes, the P120 has seen added power. But that's not just through turning up the RPM. To upgrade an "old" 120 to the SE level (about 1,500 more RPM and @4lb thrust), you need to upgrade to a billet compressor wheel, change to the new EGV and tunnel shaft, and upgrade the ECU. This adds up to a whole new engine, basically. It is definitely NOT recommended to just turn up the RPM in the ECU. You will kill the motor and it is not safe.
It is true that you have the 100RXi that is basically a P-60 sized engine modified to operate at significantly higher RPM, so that you get 100N in a 60 sized package. But that too involved significant re-engineering and that engine has had a of issues, much more IMO than what JC is letting on. And I am not sure that the 100RXi performance in the air translates - you really only get the extra oomph at the very top of the RPM range - otherwise, you have a 60 sized engine most of the time. You can't get away from the basic physics: smaller compressor and turbine mean less power... more RPM and heat means faster wear.
It is true that you have the 100RXi that is basically a P-60 sized engine modified to operate at significantly higher RPM, so that you get 100N in a 60 sized package. But that too involved significant re-engineering and that engine has had a of issues, much more IMO than what JC is letting on. And I am not sure that the 100RXi performance in the air translates - you really only get the extra oomph at the very top of the RPM range - otherwise, you have a 60 sized engine most of the time. You can't get away from the basic physics: smaller compressor and turbine mean less power... more RPM and heat means faster wear.
03-06-2016, 02:45 AM
#11
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Yes, the P120 has seen added power. But that's not just through turning up the RPM. To upgrade an "old" 120 to the SE level (about 1,500 more RPM and @4lb thrust), you need to upgrade to a billet compressor wheel, change to the new EGV and tunnel shaft, and upgrade the ECU. This adds up to a whole new engine, basically. It is definitely NOT recommended to just turn up the RPM in the ECU. You will kill the motor and it is not safe.
It is true that you have the 100RXi that is basically a P-60 sized engine modified to operate at significantly higher RPM, so that you get 100N in a 60 sized package. But that too involved significant re-engineering and that engine has had a of issues, much more IMO than what JC is letting on. And I am not sure that the 100RXi performance in the air translates - you really only get the extra oomph at the very top of the RPM range - otherwise, you have a 60 sized engine most of the time. You can't get away from the basic physics: smaller compressor and turbine mean less power... more RPM and heat means faster wear.
It is true that you have the 100RXi that is basically a P-60 sized engine modified to operate at significantly higher RPM, so that you get 100N in a 60 sized package. But that too involved significant re-engineering and that engine has had a of issues, much more IMO than what JC is letting on. And I am not sure that the 100RXi performance in the air translates - you really only get the extra oomph at the very top of the RPM range - otherwise, you have a 60 sized engine most of the time. You can't get away from the basic physics: smaller compressor and turbine mean less power... more RPM and heat means faster wear.
You are not correct here. The P60 has a case size that is 1/2" less diameter than the P100Rx and runs at 165,000 rpm compared to the 100Rx at 154,000 rpm.
All our turbines run within the same basic heat range regardless of manufacturer or turbine size as they use the same materials. Billet compressors has allowed a small increase in rpm as the material is stronger. The governing factor of the rotor is the peripheral speed of the compressor and if you check regardless of size and manufacturer they are all much the same. Speed can affect bearing life. I run my own design small turbines at 250,000 rpm which is way above the P60. If the bearings are kept clean and lubricated and the rotor is perfectly balanced then bearing life can be quite good even at these speeds.
In answer to the original mail no engines cannot simply have their rpm unlocked and increased to get more power. Much of the engine will have to be changed to gain an increase in power and most times that will not make economic sense.
John
03-06-2016, 03:11 PM
#12
If you had more carefully read what I wrote - I am not implying the 100RX is just a souped up 60. I am saying that it is a different approach to power: higher RPMs in a smaller unit. And of course I understand that all your turbines operate in the same heat range - all jet engines do and are limited by materials. My heat comments had to do with the greater challenge of shedding that excess heat in a smaller case and bearing sizes. I guess I hit a nerve by mentioning issues with the 100. It is what it is.
03-07-2016, 01:19 AM
#13
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I am not sure what you mean about the P100. If you compare it to the Merlin 100 which is the same power the Jetcat P100 has a larger case size 97mm compared to 90mm. They run at about the same max rpm. The Merlin 100 has enjoyed a good reputation for reliability and power. There is no reason why a turbine of this specification should be a problem. I know nothing about the issues you refer to with the P100. If there are any it is nothing to do with the specs.
John
John
03-07-2016, 01:31 PM
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There are a number of limiting factors - but one major one is the ability to keep the combustion inside the combustion chamber. This is one area where model turbines are more technically "on the edge" than the full size. It is a bit of a black art and all the manufacturers have had a long learning curve of successive small improvements here.
When an improvement has been made in the combustion chamber it will usually allow the compressor /turbine system to be designed more "aggressively" and hence an increase in thrust becomes possible. This is why the thrust vs can size ratio has nearly doubled since the advent of the KJ66 a little under 20 years ago.
Therefore it will never be a case of "upgrading" an existing engine - because these improvements always involve adjustments to every part of the system.
When an improvement has been made in the combustion chamber it will usually allow the compressor /turbine system to be designed more "aggressively" and hence an increase in thrust becomes possible. This is why the thrust vs can size ratio has nearly doubled since the advent of the KJ66 a little under 20 years ago.
Therefore it will never be a case of "upgrading" an existing engine - because these improvements always involve adjustments to every part of the system.
03-07-2016, 04:43 PM
#15
Two guys at my club have both had issues with theirs, including one flameout that resulted in a hull loss. Both engines went back for service/replacement. If you google "p100rx problems" you will see a number of similar occurrences. Someone (who shall remain nameless) who is close to jetcat DE has told me that a significant number of these engines have come back in for service or replacement.
And for the record, before this turns into brand bashing, I fly Jetcat and Kingtech, and find both products to be excellent. Each also have their minor issues, and strengths.
And for the record, before this turns into brand bashing, I fly Jetcat and Kingtech, and find both products to be excellent. Each also have their minor issues, and strengths.
Wednesday we are heading to my home field to maiden the lightning if all goes right.
