noahb

My Feedback: (67)

They may not be able to QA the wing when it's fully built, but they sure can before they lay the halves together.

Next, this is why I like threads like this. Money does not grow on trees (at least not anywhere i know of) and those that maybe can't afford the higher end kits like BVM have to settle for kits like these. However, asking people to stop posting does nothing for the jet hobby and in fact can be dangerous. People now may take a closer look at these jets and decide if they want to reinforce suspect areas. So I say, if you have a possible quality issue with a product, it is only right that others know about it. Not good to "hide" these issues. Others should be made aware of problems like this so they too can make informed decisions.

3DAV8R

My Feedback: (39)

You may want to revisit aerodynamics 101, all of those parts play an important roll in the strength of the airframe.

Airplanes400

My Feedback: (349)

Sounds typical of everything I've heard about SM. Poor customer service or no customer service. Not only that, but I've witnessed several situations where the SM jet arrived with defective parts and Anton wants to charge the customer for the replacement parts. Even offering a 'discount' for the replacement parts does not in any way, constitute customer service. The concept of customer service appears to escape SM (Anton's) thinking.

Gary Jefferson

My Feedback: (167)

Morne, I am not one to complain typically, but calling Skymaster's quality issues "isolated incidents" is a bit of a stretch at this point.

We have Dragon wings departing in flight, canopies exploding in flight on another model, a rudder that broke off in flight on the first 1/5 scale F-86's sold, and now wing tubes with uncured epoxy and other issues on Wojteks plane. I guess you can consider it isolated as long as you are not the unlucky person that ends up with the kit that fails in flight. But if that was your plane and it was your ten thousand dollars that ended up in a smoking hole in the ground, then you might have a different opinion.

Someone mentioned about how much better the kits are now but, to me, it seems like we are playing Russian roulette with our money. I purchased one of the first Skymaster F-18's many years ago and sold the plane before I ever built it because I was very uncomfortable with the stab design and sure enough there were several guys that lost theirs due to stabs failing. Today it just doesn't seem to be any better.

Now I have a 1/5 scale F-86 and so far I have received a new rudder to replace the original one that for sure would have failed in flight, a new set of fuel tanks to correct a serious C.G. issue that almost caused the loss of some of the early planes because it would not rotate on takeoff, and I would not even consider running the wing tanks because of the crappy engineering that went into the design for mounting them to the wings. And don't even get me started on the issues with the mounting of the stabs and inaccessibility to bolts for removing the rudder. This lousy design reminds me of their new F-100 with the wing mounting bolts located behind the fuel tanks that was brought to our attention recently.

Quite frankly, after seeing the recent pictures of the internals of some of the wings being shipped from Skymaster, I have to wonder if this F-86 is going to make me their next victim or if I should just make it a $10,000.00 F-86 static display model.

None of this sounds "isolated" to me...

Airplanes400

My Feedback: (349)

Seems to me that Anton is simply selling junk (defective products) with a pretty paint job to hide the poor construction.
If the quality of the paint job was similar to the construction of an SM jet, then you should expect crooked paint lines, smeared paint, runs, orange peel, brush strokes, and painted canopies.

I wonder if the paint has high levels of lead too ...

I do believe the issues discussed here are isolated ... That is, isolated to SM jets !!!
It's a house of cards!

trioval00

My Feedback: (17)

not one of us here is perfect, and neither are the companies we purchase our jets from, but that is where customer service comes in. I have 2 SM jets, the HAwk and the new L-39. I did find missed glue spots, on the L-39 and some other minor issues as I mentined ealier, but I fixed all of that. But good customer service goes along way. a few minutes after I made my first post in this thread, I had a PM from SM and was quick to help with the damaged canopy I have.

satisfied SM customer

PaulD

My Feedback: (39)

+1

PaulD

Gary Jefferson

My Feedback: (167)

I think you pretty much nailed it; what is the first thing that gets posted when someone gets their new plane? "This thing is beautiful!!"

I guess I am just the opposite because I am a builder; since I started flying jets 10 years ago (way before ARF's) I have built over 30 turbine powered jets, well over half of them from kits that were not ARF's. The first thing I do when I open the ARF box is start checking glue joints, etc. because the finish means nothing if the plane is not airworthy.

My belief is that there many people buying ARF's nowadays that have never built a trainer, say nothing of building a jet, and therefore probably cannot recognize potential issues with ARF planes that are not airworthy. It is unfortunate but I do understand that people don't have time to build anymore. Even if they do have time, many have no desire. This can be an issue if the ARF's are not built properly. Beyond visible defects there are the potential hidden issues that lie in the wings, stabs, and rudders; even if you are an experienced builder it is irrelevant because you cannot see what is inside.

Without some major changes in Q.C. procedures from the manufacturers these issues will go on forever. Skymaster has been in business for many years now and we are dealing with the same issues from day one, they are just on different models. I see no reason to think that it is going to change now. I don't mind modifying some things on the ARF's but when you cannot trust the wings, stabs, and rudders internally I think it might be time to go back to the trusted manufacturers that have been around for a long time.

Alex48

Intersesting thread this....

Anyone read the latest RCJI? The maiden flight of the F3 in particular. Remember the Ultra Bandits that kept crashing? How many amendments has that aircraft had? My fin doesn't even line up on the fuselage and that's on a $12000 kit! What about the JL F5's that crashed due to their stabs. Or the FEJ tornado that I built where I had to reengineer the swing wing among other things on a model that was obviously to small and heavy from the outset and as a result flys horribly. The Aviation Design kit I built where the mouldings were so poor I had to rebuild the kit before I could start assembling it or the SkyGate Hawks that kept losing rudders. The list goes on............

My point being that problems are not unique to Skymaster as has been suggested. I've built loads of Skymaster Jets and never seen anything like that, I hope SM see this and do something positive to address the issues. Those that are goingn to JP can ask Anton in person about this.

I recently opened a SM wing up for a repair and was really pleased with what I found.....

olnico

Georges, I must say that I disagree with some of these statements.

1. High vibrations are not a factor as you rightly said. However a jet engine is generating tremendous gyroscopic effects ( precession ) while in flight. These effects act in all the directions while the plane is moving and induce a lot of stress to the structure.
A proper design and gluing of the engine mounts and associated formers is essential.

2. The fiberglass tube must be able to spread the load as soon as there is more than two ribs along it.

3. I assume that you are talking about equipment plates and not formers: it is a good practice to check formers gluing by trying to pull them by hand. If a former gives up, then it has to be re-glued. Formers are essential to the strength of the fuselage structure, like ribs are essential to the strength of a wing.

DelGatoGrande

My Feedback: (23)

Hey Oli!
when you coming over to Greece my friend?[8D]



1 SkyMaster mounds are design to take the loads generate by turbine engines.
Its been mention that this woods look weak but no one notice that a turbine missing on them.
Turbine it self conect this rails and make them way stronger that they are on there own.

2 For the fiberglass tube i totaly disagree..
As soon as the metal wing tube takes place inside the TOTAL LENTH of the stacture
then this fiberglass tube has become metal and forces go from the ribs on the metal tube.
The two wing skins(upper and botom) should be conect with ribs and again once more with the right grain direction.
This fiberglass tube must have perfect fit thru the ribs and well glued on them/no excuse here/
BUT to my humble opinion not to be consider as the way that the wing skins up and bottom are hold together


3 i totaly agree as my self too i go all over the joins with hysol if nesecery even with the top line brands
but i dont know how good practice is to check formers by trying to pull them by hand...some guys are very strong


P.S. Oli and rest of the guys thank you once more for your feedback/The only outcome will be better products.[sm=thumbup.gif]

p.p.s. its also my rensposibility to warn you about
the big vipers/big hawks(camo ones) and the 1/6 F16 skymaster jets are defect and no good /please ship them to my address

Carsten Groen

George,
you say the outcome of this feedback will be better products`, I ask, when ?
Regarding the alu tabs on the Viper (and other of their planes too), this was reported more than a year ago, and still nothing has happended ? When it was first discovered, the answer from the factory was that the workers would be made aware of the problem, I my ears, that sounds a little like "BS" ?

The rudder on the large Viper is still delivered with 3 "garbage" "robart look-alike" pinhinges, they are ABSOLUTELY not up to the job (as several who has lost their rudders in flight have withnessed), again, this was first brought up many many months ago, still the same that is being delivered (at least the last I saw a couple of months ago)

To be fair, I bought a Hawk 100 (in Saudi camo ) a few months back, it was much better than the Viperjet, but the missing glue joints I saw in my Viperjet wings made up my mind, I will wait some time before I buy one of their planes again (I try not to think how the internals of the wing might look, hope it is better than the Viperjet....) !


I know you say this with a smile, but I bet that the guys who lost their Vipers/F16 and Dragons (two here in Denmark) don't smile the same way, for them it is a total loss, and surely not much fun []

Airplanes400

My Feedback: (349)

'Word of mouth' goes a long way, and this forum helps to spread the word very well since people of all countries are on here. I'm sure many potential Skydisaster sales have been lost due to 'word of mouth'. I have steered several people (at least 16 that I know of) away from SM Jets by telling them of the poor quality and resulting issues. Most of them went to BVM, and the others went to FB or a kit from Yellow Aircraft. So, do the math and see how much money SM lost because of the poor construction and word of mouth.

If SM added another $100 to the price of their jets AND did a PROPER building job, I'm sure all the customers would not mind at all. HOWEVER, AND NEEDLESS TO SAY, at the price these ARF's are going for, the QUALITY and ENGINEERING SHOULD BE UP TO PAR AND ALREADY BUILT IN !! I know I'd rather have a jet built correctly for another $100 rather than get a poorly constructed SM jet that has a good chance of crashing due to the poor construction and engineering. DAMN ... these jets are a $6000+ investment by the time they are ready to fly!

After seeing all these issues, I doubt that Skymaster (Anton and his staff) are capable of properly building jets that are airworthy.

I've been building jets for nearly 20 years (mostly from kits), and I reinforce when and where needed. I also charge extra to do this when building for others, and those people are more than happy to pay the $100 extra for a jet that will not break up easily or crash due to poor design.

DelGatoGrande

My Feedback: (23)

Hey Carsten !

yes i sed better products and when this take place the unswer is: everyday!
you just cant say in a pipe line that this products are the best!when you will say that at the same time you say"i know everything"
Sorry but there is no such a thing as a best product .

Regarding constraction faults(alu tabs/cracks/poor joinds/samples of a poor product)
as i have mention before you just dont acept the product and you return it or you ask for replacement.cause it is BS but 99% its our fault when we keep the product
and "help" or simpathy our dealer/YOU DONT proseed try to modify it and try to fix it.If you do you take the risk so dont complain
/if you heard about it and you cant open the wing to check it dont order the product!

For the Viper rudder hinges ..since im coming out of the precision/3D 100cc + world that doesnt mean that i know how to fly but it means
that i know how to abuse an airframe big time.There is no way i know how this people flew there vipers or what throws they used and in what speeds
but again when it comes to this models the owner is rensponsible for building them and choose materials and equipment.

I havent read post about the viper because of the many pages since its very tireing for me to read English
but im beeing honest and tell you that when my viper came this pins got bined before the plane was out from the box as soon as saw them
and no one had advised me to do so!by the way i bin too all airlines and use dreamwork ones!

skymaster maybe throw the best hinges he can found because maybe robart asked him too much?just thinking out loud!
and yes skymaster can get away with this hinges because you can fly proper a viper with those with no failure.

this conversetions are endless /bottom line all arfs i see them and treat them as kits
i sugest you also do so..


you coment my last ppm by bring the guys lost there planes
i cant go down that road and take side .only because i dont know or anyone else know what reeeealyyy happent!
speaking generaly some guy will do anything for a free plane specialy if they can cover there loss.

ill get bit up by saying that but it takes a lot more to build an rc jet than its manual only

Carsten all i can wish you one day is you get your faith back in our products and if you choose them we will be here to help!
its a hard market cause our customers are builders too and we cant get away!and everytime we push for more quality

Again there is NO excuse for this defect products!What i can do is help customers and press skymaster for more!
with out demanting customers we would still fly on jpx or something


thank you for your time reading me
sorry again for my poor english
Best regards
George

DelGatoGrande

My Feedback: (23)

20 years jet builder?!!This take loads of money time and love for this hobby like the most of us!My respect sir!

i just visited your gallery : http://www.rcuniverse.com/community/...y&memid=425443

Do you also build turbine powered jets?

...boys time for me to jump out of this one ...so you know who in case i wont reply dont be ofented i just dont read this one anymore.
i leave you all to the very expert jet builder above![sm=thumbup.gif]

im taking my savage out today to go and play with the rest of the guys(thats not a joke) [8D]

take care everybody[sm=thumbup.gif][sm=wink_smile.gif]

Carsten Groen

I did not see the problem with the wing before I got my own, and when I asked SM about what to do, they offered a discount! on two new wings, that was what happended (so no replacement!)

Regarding the Alu tab, well I picked the plane up at SM's booth at JetPower last year, at that time (as Anton said he had made his workers aware of it many months before) I assumed that the "Alu story" was of course fixed (the manager/owner of the company promised that months ago you see....)

So you, a Skymaster dealer, dumped the 3 pin hinges immediatly whn you saw them (and the airlines too), and yet, it's the same stuff that is delivered still (even on my hawk 100 rudder), WHY! is that not changed by the factory, if we keep telling them that the pin hinges are no good (and their reps even throw them in the bin) ?

I think I speak for all customers! when I say that we gladly will pay the difference between the 3 "low quality" pin hinges and some Robart ones, we are talking investments of upto $10.000 !!!

PS: and your english is fine, way better than my Greek

digitech

My Feedback: (10)

well dont fix to much , i am loosing sales in ruddderhorns , oleo,s , and decent hinges!
a man has got to eat!.

pilot tw

Hi, all

Firstly, I sincerely apologize to Wojtek because this is not acceptable mistake and quality issue.We’ll arrange to prepare and send new wings and tanks etc. as quickly as we can.Hi Wojtek,if you have any further request,please contact us directly as possible as you can.

I started to make ARF Jet ten years ago and cooperated with OEM factory at the beginning.Because I hadn’t been satisfied the quality made by that OEM factory,which is not up to my goal to make the highest quality standard of jet. So,five years ago, I invested in opening factory fully owned by Skymaster.From then on,I invited first-class pioneers in aerospace modeling coming from Taiwan,Hong Kong and mainland China.We together complete the ARF JETs with unique features only to Skymaster. The unique features are reflected by best airframe,landing gear and scale cockpit,etc.

Among five years,Skymaster has been improving step by step. For a lot of customers who have experience of purchasing Skymaster jet, they are sure to well know Skymaster has a number of improvements in building quality and scale detail,etc.Now Skymaster has finished new milestone as far as ARF jet quality and scale feature.

I’m proud to tell everyone that among five years we’ve already delivered over 2,500 jets to customers. Among this number, repeat customers number covers over 60% and they buy new jets because they are satisfied with last Skymaster jet in quality and scale look. What mostly makes me feel assured of is about F-4 owned by pilot Mr. Roland Raith from Germany.In three years from 2007 to 2009,Roland has finished 1,300 landings on F-4 Except that the tires was once replaced,the landing gear designed by Mr. Li Kai works till now and there is no need to replace it.And the strength of this ARF frame is out of my satisfaction. This has proved my direction from beginning is correct.Skymaster is only a factory to assemble jets.All ARF PLUS airframes,landing gears,painting,cockpit and accessories are made by my partners.First-class team made up of partners from Taiwan,Hong Kong and mainland China makes ultimate jets for Skymaster.I think ultimate jet is not only my personal dram but also all jet modellers’ dream.

For a long time,I have been instructing my staff to make the planes that we cherish and don’t want to sell,because such planes are what customers mostly want. Although we already did like that, a very limited number of few kits are released to market because mistake from quality control.I feel terribly sorry for this.

Among 2,500 kits delivered in 5 years,except that only a few of them were replaced because of damage from transportation, only a very limited number of jets require replacement because customers complained about quality.

The issue Wojtek faced is only isolated case. On my trip to Jetpower from Hong Kong airport,I called factory manager and made some improvement instructions.I ask manager to set up new stronger quality control system. Quality control will be done over the 5 stages as below: airframe kit before building; building before painting; painting before PRO(landing gear and gear door installation);PRO (landing gear and gear door installation);packing before deliver. In this case,the quality control steps doubles compare with before. I decide to do it because I fully understand quality control is the final process to warranty quality,after working hard on scale detail of airframe,buiding workmanship,construction,test flying…etc.Without efficient quality control as warranty,without good quality product for customer and all hard work made in previous stages will be nothing,I think.I honestly wish that customers’ satisfaction is our greatest success.Skymaster will aim to be the symbol of ultimate jet.

About customer service. Since the beginning of Skymaster, I believe many of our customers know well about it. Sometimes probably because of contact with dealer, the delay is cuaused. To make our customers enjoy first class service,I now decide to carry out plan of replying to e-mail in 24 hours and delivery in 48 hours. If you has such need,please send e-mail to my personal e-mail box [email protected] Your e-mail will be responded in 24 hours. If the spare part to order is in stock, we can arrange delivery in 48 hours. You don’t have to make prepayment.After we deliver the order,you can pay us by paypal for payment with shipping.I hope all Skymaster’s customers will enjoy the first class top service.

Thank you for your attention.,

Best regards

Anton / at Hong Kong Airport

Airplanes400

My Feedback: (349)

Yes George, I build turbine as well. I got tired of posting all my planes/jets on my profile, so I no longer do it.

But just to say this ,,, I built my ducted fan jets with more precision, strength, and expertise than any of the SM turbine jets that come out of the 'factory.' When I build turbine jets, I build even more strength into them.

Secondly, since you clearly stated that you are not an experienced builder nor someone that understands airframe structure or flight dynamics, you really should not be making statements about aircraft stress and structure that are not true or accurate.

George, I do applaud your desire to put pressure on SM (Anton) to make a better airframe, tell people to not accept the poor quality, suggest they demand replacement parts for the defects, assist the customer in obtaining the replacement parts, your honesty to call it junk when it is junk, and your ability and desire to communicate in English. For all that, I thank you and commend you. Just please be aware that Anton is very slow in correcting the quality issues. It appears he is more interested in making money than in making a better product. In my opinion, he is incapable of making a better product simply because I see so many mistakes that should not be, and mistakes that even an intermediate builder would never do.

I used to build and paint my planes/jets. Now I prefer to build, then have someone do the painting. Painting is very involved, and I don't want the hassles, the mess, or the clean-up. I also don't want to do all the work. I'd much rather pay someone $400 to $500 to paint. It is worth it to me ... no matter what they charge.

Thanks again, George. You are a good guy.

Bryce Watson

My Feedback: (6)

Airplanes400

My Feedback: (349)

Again, it appears that Anton missed the point of replacing defective parts. While it is OK to charge someone for a spare part, it is not acceptable to charge someone for replacement parts (and shipping charges) to correct for DEFECTIVE parts. Defects are the sole responsibility of the manufacturer, and should be replaced FREE OF CHARGE (shipping included). On the few occasions I got defective parts in a kit, all I did was email some photos of the problem/defect. That was all the manufacturer/distributor needed to send the replacement part at their expense.

highhorse

My Feedback: (2)

+1
Well said

invertmast

My Feedback: (23)

Soo.. you doubled each airplanes exposure to Quality Control inspections... Nice... BUT what exactly does the checklist look like for each of these Inspections, and what is the background of the person who is performing the Quality control? It does no good to double the inspections if the person doing them has absolutely no idea what they are doing, or what they are looking for. Soo... WHO gets the priviledged "QC inspector" title, and how do you go about choosing them? And WHAT do they go by? Do you have a checklist of items that they use for each and every plane? IF you do, why not include Signed copies or the signed original Checklist in with the airplane when it is shipped to the customer? Atleast then the customer/owner will know what was checked, and if they find anything that isn't correct then they will have a name to provide of who did the inspection and what exactly they found.

AndyAndrews

I believe he was talking about "spare" parts not warranty replacements. I for one wouldn't pay for warranty replacements. If a jet company tried to charge me for a defective part (part or freight), that would be the last time I ever purchased a jet from that factory.

Alex48

That was my interpretation of his post considering he said this at the beginning.