A1RENCH

Hi guys. I have a few U-Control planes that I built and flew when I was a kid. My problem is that I have misplaced the cables and don't remember the exact sizes and
lengths for each size of model. As I remember the larger models flew on 60 or 62 foot
cables. And the mid-size models (.15 to .19) flew on 40 somthing foot cables, I think.
I have a magician .15 and a p-40 warhawk .15 that my son recently discovered and
thinks he might want to fly them. I'm tickled that he has an interest in them, but I got
some funny looks at the local hobby shop when inquiring about C/L planes. I'm not to sure they even knew what I was talking about! Also, my motors do not have mufflers
on them. Can motors be retrofitted with mufflers? Most of my engines are probably at least 40 years old. Most of the fuels I looked at are synthetic or synthetic/castor oil blends. I recall using pure castor oil as lubricant, with 5 or 10% nitro. The fuels I saw at the hobby shop had 15-40% nitro. What do you guys fly with? Where can I buy some cables? Am I correct on the lengths of the cable?
Thanks for your help!
A1RENCH

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

A1Wrench:

Anything control line you want, including some videos, from Brodak.

Go here:

www.brodak.com

Bill.

Bud Morrison

My Feedback: (8)

Depending on the model I fly on everything from 30-70 foot wires.
Whats more important to me when purchasing lines is to get the propper diameter.
You dont want to be flying a .35 engine on .008 1/2a wire.
I also have some kevlar spools here as well. Havent used any of them yet as I just ran across them in a hobby shop a few weeks ago.
There was once a recomended wire size chart floating around on the net.
I fly my smaller engines .049-.15 on 30% cool Power heli fuel with one ounce of sig castor added per gallon. These however will also run just fine on off the shelf sport fuel. My larger engines I fly on normal 10-15% sport fuel. I also add another ounce of castor per gallon to it, just due to the fact that some of my engines are older and like the added castor. Newer engines run fine on sport fuel. Just watch the lean end of things
I havent had any issues with any of my modern engines. Some engines can be retrofitted with muffler depending on your flying field. I fly many of mine without still as I have no problems with noise issues anywhere I fly.

Most the cable sets I have were manufactured/branded by Sig. Not sure if they still distribute them as I purchase them when ever I see one in a hobby shop laying around.

Old Sourdough

A1Rench,

Try your midsized (.09 to .19) planes with .012"×52' stranded steel lines to start. That's the most common length used for those planes. The kevlar lines will work but tend to be very draggy and give a somewhat soft response to control inputs. Hopefully, you still have a handle or two around.

I respectfully have to disagree with Bud about fuel. If your older .15's were well broken in and well used, and they are of the iron piston/steel liner variety, DO NOT use off the shelf R/C fuel (especially Morgan fuels) in them unless you want to start replacing parts or engines soon! You will clean out the varnish you built up using the all castor fuel and rapidly lose compression and front bushings, especially if you have a slightly lean run or two. You are correct that you should look for a fuel with a large percentage of Castor oil as the lubricant.

Most of the older .15's operate best with 10% nitro and 25% (or slightly more) lube, at least 75% of which should be castor oil. A good Castor oil to use is available from SIG. Some Byron Fuels have castor oil as part of the lubricant. SIG still makes and sells 100% castor fuels, as does Powermaster (Ask for the GMA Blend of 10%/29%.) If your local hobby shop doesn't stock and can't or won't order your choice of them for you, you can obtain them from the source in case quantities. If that is not an option, check for other CL Flyers in the Louisville area who might help you with a tank or two of fuel to allow your son to try the planes and see whether he may have a continuing interest. Unfortunately, you may not find any of those Louisville guys here yet

Have fun.

gcb

A1,
As mentioned previously, you want ALL castor fuel. There should be some CL flyers in Louisville who can point you in the direction of a hobby shop that has CL stuff.
What engines do you intend to use?
There are after market mufflers available for some engines. You may have to look for a Tatone Peace Pipe or Calumet. These are no longer produced but can be had from swap meets and from other modelers.
Depending on which .15's you have, the 52' x .012 would be fine. You may have to adjust length to suit. The next smaller standard length is 42' which is a bit short for a .15.
Make sure you check the planes over thoroughly before flying them. You may find that warps have krept in, covering is brittle, glue joints have become weak. Especially check the elevator hinges for strength.
Those are two fine designs you mention and are well worth the effort to restore.

Good luck,
George

Bud Morrison

My Feedback: (8)

Heh I was talking Old Not antique Old to me is surviving 2 flying seasons without getting a bent shaft or ran to lean. I have never had a problem with any of the Morgan fuels. Granted you older guys ( older being the same people I look to for answers when I have a problem ) may fly engines as old as I am tho. I have never had a failure due to lack of lubrication. Generally everything that has ever failed on me has been me turning the needle in just that lil to far. Or lack of avoiding the ground at high speeds. I was just stating what I run in my engines.


But I would recomend following the recomendation these guys have given you as there wisdom is way past my years. They are the same guys I allways look for answers from when I have a problem as I stated above. I was just stating what I run in my engines.

Bud Morrison

My Feedback: (8)

Are they werth me trying out or should I just leave them in the packs. I didnt pay much at all for them as they were in a clearence box. I have never tried kevlar at all. I do have piles of lines so it is not like I wouldn't have anything else to use.


Thanks
Bud
Patiently waiting for the spell check to be put back in place

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

C/L:

Personally, I'c cut them up for use as reinforcement. The aramid (Kevlar) cord is almost as strong as carbon fiber, and since you have it already, it's a lot cheaper.

I tried fabric lines a long time ago on 1/2A, and didn't like the feel of them there. I can't imagine an 80mph plane with the slow control response they gave on the little planes. But the aramid cord might not be as "Stretchy feeling," do as you wish. I wouldn't even think of flying with them.

Bill.

Sport_Pilot

I don't know why he said that. Many C/L engines are still made with cast iron piston and steel sleeves. Some R/C engines also. But they were more commen back a few years, and he did say he had some old C/L planes.

Fix-it

My Feedback: (3)

I had a pair of Sullivan Kevlar ( aaramid ) lines 10-12 years ago. Tried them on a profile trainer ( Streak trainer maybe - solid balsa airfoiled wing about 32" span) with a pretty good Fox .19 on it. The lines had so much drag ( wind resistance due to large diameter/ flatish cross section) that they had a 6-8 foot bow between me and the wing tip. Very mushy response and plane was slowed down a bunch. Switched back to regular .018 stranded and it was like a new plane.

I agree that you should probably use them for reinforcement. Might make a good spar cap stiffener or sandwich between top and bottom trailing edge sheeting to stiffen that up.

Bud Morrison

My Feedback: (8)

I myself dont own anything at all with a steel bore and cast iron piston. heh I didnt think anyone even produced engines anymore with cast iron pistons and steel bores in them.
I know theres still some ringed stuff out there but thats generally bigger engines.
So when it was made mention of the first thing I thought of was Vintage Antique engines. That is why I made the statement above.

I also recomended he listened to the others.

I have no problems with synthetics I actualy like them. I add castor where I see fit. Some people swear by castor. I have found I can run my engines out of one jug of fuel after they are broke in and seasoned a lil.. Im not about to go out and purchase 6 diffrent fuels for all the engines I have.

I do have a couple older fox .15's I got in a trade. Ive never had one of them apart. Are they steel bore and cast iron piston? They have the angled plug in them. Oh and they are Antique to me also

Bud Morrison

My Feedback: (8)

Bill,

Since it looks like your into twin engined planes. I have one of the Brodak 1/2a twin P38 kits. I have either 2 Norvels I can put on it. Or I have 2 teedee .049s I could put on it and a reverse rotation crankshaft for one of the teedees.
Would there be any advantage to running the engines on the plane with counter rotation. This will be the fisrt twin engine anything I have ever built / flown.

Bud Morrison

My Feedback: (8)

Well now I know why they were in the clearence bin and were priced about the same as buying an empty spool reel

gcb

ControlLine,
All Fox .15's from the first "steel fins" to the present schnuerle are iron/steel. Most Fox engines are iron/steel.
The reason for using all castor in a used iron/steel engine, especially one with extensive running time, is that the castor forms a varnish in the porous iron piston that supplies some of the compression. If you add a little synthetic to your fuel (as much as 3% I understand) it will remove the varnish and "clean" your engine. When you have this happen you may be surprised at the compression your engine doesn't have.
Not to worry. By switching to all castor, most if not all of the seal will come back as you run the engine. You may experience harder starting (low compression) while it is building up.
The caution about "RC" fuel is twofold. First is the synthetic issue. The other is the AMOUNT of lube. Most use lube amounts adequate for ABC, BB engines. Engines without BBs and engines that are iron/steel need more. About 22%-25% is recommended for most. The Fox .35 needs 25%-29%.
Additionally, it seems (opinion) that CL use requires more lube than RC. Perhaps it is the stresses imposed by constant changing loads during maneuvers.

George

Sport_Pilot

controlline,
You fly C/L and you don't know that the venerable Fox Stunt .35 is still made with a cast iron piston and steel sleeve? Your Fox .15's are old but the modern one is also cast iron and steel sleeve. As are many of the smaller Fox engines both R/C and C/L. The lower priced Enya's are also. Other than a few low production engines (I recall some made specifically to fit a scale model) that is about it.

Sport_Pilot

While I agree that they run better and seal better with castor, I don't buy that theory. Mostly because I have run with as little as 30% castor 70% synthetic with no problems except for hot restarts which started on the first tank and lasted to the last tank. Back to 100% castor and no problems. The thing is that castor oil is thicker and doesn't vaporize. Has little to do with varnish.

The only reason to use so much oil in C/L is to improve the 4-2-4 break, other than that you can use the same percentages as R/C. One exception is the Fox Stunt. If you look at it you see it doesn't have much in the way of cooling fins. Many other early engines were also this way. Reduce the oil and it will get hot even when 4 cycling, especially with a cowled stunter.

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

CL:

My very first twin was a control liner, a twin fuselage plane, with a pair of real (not Testors) McCoy rear intake 0.19 engines. That was back in the dark ages, in the middle '50s. Once I learned to make sure the engine on the outside of the circle quit first I had no problem flying it.

And that is more important on a u/c twin than counter rotation.

On an R/C plane the counter rotation makes a real difference, on a c/l plane if the engine on the inside of the circle quits first you have a problem. Counter rotation wont save you if you are high at the time it quits. You're going to run to keep the lines tight. With a single it just comes down when the engine quits, a twin with the outside engine running by itself is going to come in on you if it's high. If you are down low when the inboard quits you're generally ok.

Regards the Norvel <-> Cox argument. Both are good engines. Use all four of them - build two planes. You have the kit, just cut an extra set of parts.

Just a word on the Norvels - if you've never run ABC/ABN engines, do not run them rich for break-in. They have to stay hot, running rich they will stay too cool, you can ruin them quickly.

One final item against using the Coxes counter-rotating. Try finding a matched set of reversed props for them. You can do it, but it's a pain.

Hope this helps.

Bill.

Bud Morrison

My Feedback: (8)

Hmm Thanks for the info on the counter rotating and the twins.

Starting the outboard engine and tuning it first should make it run out of fuel before the inboard engine wont it ?

I have at least 10 norvels here and prolly 18 cox engines at least that assembled cox engines.
I love my 1/2a engines.
I have this addiction of leaving flee markets and anywhere else I can find them with a giant pile of what someone else thought was junk 1/2a engines that I take home and make into a pile of sweet lil running 1/2a engines.

I guess Ill sell that reverse teedee crankshaft as they are hard to come by anymore.
if I dont use it on this then I wont be using it anywhere.
Ill just shove a pair of .061 norvels on the P38 Twin.

I learned the break in procedure on the norvels the Hard way and ruined a few before I figured out not to add any castor at all to the fuel I break them in with and to run them lean and mean. I also preheat them a lil with a heat gun.

Bud Morrison

My Feedback: (8)

I have never purchased a fox engine or bolted one onto any planes. Any Fox engine I have ever had in my hands came trading lots of items or buying a lot of items. I will most likely trade these away also. Dont get me wrong. I am not dissing the guys that run the Fox engines as I hear they are dependable nice lil motors. They just arent the cutting edge tech I like to tinker with.

So far I have done 99% of my control line flying by myself as the control line club here disbanded in 1976 or so. The 2 closest clubs are both over an hour away from me and I just have not been able to make the time to visit one of them. So I would say no I have never picked up and looked at a fox Stunt .35

I am however hoping to make it up to one of the clubs this weekend but as usual when I can make the trip It'll prolly rain and Ill be stuck by myself flying in the local park again.

William Robison

My Feedback: (3)

CL:

I just got a brand new Cox #1720 reverse crank for the TeeDee from Mercury Hobbies, in Mandeville La. Jules Damare, owner, says he still has a good stock of Cox parts.

Keep him in mind, phone number (985) 892-7204 will get you to him.

He also had several NIB Cox TD 05 RC engines. Got one of them also.

Bill.

Bud Morrison

My Feedback: (8)

Hah dont let the guys up in the 1/2a RC thread hear you say that they will have him sold out of all the good parts before you know it !

None of the shops around here stock anything more than a couple cox engines and a couple glow plugs. When it comes to cox items.

Old Sourdough

ControlLine,

I just checked this thread for the first time today and noticed this post about your Brodak P-38 kit. To check my memory, I just also checked the Brodak site and the only 1/2a twin I see there is the F-82 Twin Mustang with the following specs:

Wing Span: 32 3/8
Plane Length: 17 1/4
Wing Area: 156
Engine: (2) .049

Is this the plane you have? Brodak may have done a P-38 kit at some time in the past, but I don't remember one. Anyway, if you have the F-82, I think that you might rethink using either the Norvels or the TeeDees. That plane is a bit small for all those revs unless you "feel the need for speed." A couple of Golden Bees or even Black Widows would probably serve you better on this one.

All of the 1/2a engines mentioned so far are also some of those iron piston/steel cylinder engines that really need that a fuel containing castor oil.

It should make a fun sport plane.

gcb

Sorry Sport, that is fact, not theory. That you did not lose seal probably means that your engine is not nearly worn out. Castor in the pores does not make compression, it only restores it. Duke Fox used to advertise his Superfuel (29% all castor) for restoring some power to a worn out engine. It works on iron/steel only, not ABC.
Since the engines in question were apparently run extensively and their age means that they are probably iron/steel, some of their compression MAY be from the castor. The caution was to alert that IF the engine loses compression when synthetic is used, it might be restored by using all castor fuel.

Castor oil flashes at a higher temp than most synthetics. Before flashing it will thicken and form a protective varnish. This will SOMETIMES save an engine if you get off with a lean run.

The 4-2 break is primarily a function of timing through adjustment of porting (blowdown), compression (head shims), loading (prop size), fuel, and plug. The amount and type of lube you use is a matter of metalurgy and type of construction.

This is true. One of the primary functions of the lube is to carry off heat.

Sometimes people get the same results using different observations so please don't assume this to be some sort of attack...just a different point of view.

George

Edit: Sorry, forgot to sign it.

Sport_Pilot

.

I didn't say it was the only way to get an engine to have a good break, just a factor. If you run an OS LA with the factory recommended fuel it may not do a 4-2-4 break, up the oil content to 25% and they will. Some of the older C/L engines had R/C versions with the same sleeves piston's and rings if used. Yet the C/L engines ran better with more oil because they did a better 4-2-4 break with it. I know for a fact the ABC Fox Stunt does a stronger break with more oil. But less oil has more power if you have a heavier stunter.

I agree with you about varnish on an older engine, but makes no differance on a good engine, if varnish is the only thing sealing it, it will not last much longer.

Jim Thomerson

I might mention that there was a review of 60-size RC engines in MAN (a friend gives it to me) and the Fox engine was rated the best. How about that sport fans?

Jim