Anyone using nylon hinges without glue?
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I've got a Senior Telemaster ARF that has been flown for several years without any mishap or control issues. The aileron, rudder, and elevators are all hinged using Dubro(like) pinned nylon hinges. These hinges were never glued at all. They were attched by a single screw on each end that was small enough to penetrate the hinge and sit flush in the control surface and in the body of the plane. In effect they are pinned with a wood screw and not glued. The screw heads are then hidden by the covering.
I am thinking about using this method on a Sig FourStar 120 that I'll be building this winter. I love the Dubro hinges as opposed to the CA hinges that come with the kit. I also like the more adjustable, less gooey, harder to screw up, mechanical only, attachment method used on the Telemaster.
Any thoughts?
I am thinking about using this method on a Sig FourStar 120 that I'll be building this winter. I love the Dubro hinges as opposed to the CA hinges that come with the kit. I also like the more adjustable, less gooey, harder to screw up, mechanical only, attachment method used on the Telemaster.
Any thoughts?
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Me either, what this tells me is that you need to spend more time practicing hinging. Get two pieces of 1/4 balsa, shape them as a trailing edge and leading edge of control surface, and practice!
I fly Turbines exclusively, and hinging of my control surfaces is something I hate, because I spend hours making sure each one is placed properly and installed such that it can NEVER depart!
I consider proper hinging PARAMOUNT to the life of an airplane.
I fly Turbines exclusively, and hinging of my control surfaces is something I hate, because I spend hours making sure each one is placed properly and installed such that it can NEVER depart!
I consider proper hinging PARAMOUNT to the life of an airplane.
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Ditto, that would make me nervous. I'm sure the screw is strong enough and I doubt it would pull thru the hinge, but I would be concerned with putting the entire surface load on the wood screw as it might wallow out or tear wood.
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Why not?
I'm not trying to abe a smart-arse. The screws are held in by the wood and the covering and thus will not fall out. The hinges possible could develope a bit of lateral play if the slots were cut too wide but this has never been a problem on my telemaster. The screws on my Telemaster are at least as secure as the would glue on the hinge points on my last Fourstar.
Thanks,
Rich
I'm not trying to abe a smart-arse. The screws are held in by the wood and the covering and thus will not fall out. The hinges possible could develope a bit of lateral play if the slots were cut too wide but this has never been a problem on my telemaster. The screws on my Telemaster are at least as secure as the would glue on the hinge points on my last Fourstar.
Thanks,
Rich
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ORIGINAL: seanreit
I fly Turbines exclusively, and hinging of my control surfaces is something I hate, because I spend hours making sure each one is placed properly and installed such that it can NEVER depart!
I consider proper hinging PARAMOUNT to the life of an airplane.
I fly Turbines exclusively, and hinging of my control surfaces is something I hate, because I spend hours making sure each one is placed properly and installed such that it can NEVER depart!
I consider proper hinging PARAMOUNT to the life of an airplane.
I wouldn't do it on a turbine. Hell, I'd never fly a turbine period! I'd be scared to death having that much cash in the air. A turbine is also kind of an extreme example compared to what I'm talking about.
A Fourstar 120 is a fairly large bird and the kit comes with CA hinges. The nylon hinges are much more flexible but the hinge has to be a bit inset into the control surface to limit the gap. It's a PIA to keep glue off the hinge line.
I may just try it and pump some thin CA into the screw holes after everything is ready to go......
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ORIGINAL: JohnW
Ditto, that would make me nervous. I'm sure the screw is strong enough and I doubt it would pull thru the hinge, but I would be concerned with putting the entire surface load on the wood screw as it might wallow out or tear wood.
Ditto, that would make me nervous. I'm sure the screw is strong enough and I doubt it would pull thru the hinge, but I would be concerned with putting the entire surface load on the wood screw as it might wallow out or tear wood.
I was nervous about just relying on the glue. I've been also pinning the bloody things but I invariably end up getting glue in a hinge or having too big a gap....
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That's why it was suggested that you get more practice on inserting this kind of hinges. Try putting a little Vaseline petroleum jelly on the hinge before you use the glue.
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I doubt the Telemaster is much faster than a stale fart. So the load on the control surfaces would be very low. A 4*-120 is a much faster heavier model, so no, I would not rely on a single screw in wood.
I have installed hundreds of the nylon Dubro hinges over the years with slow epoxy and a dab of Vasoline on the hinge pin. Never had one fail unless there was nothing left of the airplane from a crash. I don't pin them either, but I do scribe them or score them with an Exacto knife. On both halfs on both sides, I score them about a dozen times so the epoxy has something to grip. I then add the Vasoline with a Q-tip lightly, and put the glue into the slot with a flatten soda straw. Then a light smear of glue to wet the surface of the hinge and slide it in. Only thing to consider is keeping all the hinge pins in a line for free action.
Here is a picture of a hinged surface.
I have installed hundreds of the nylon Dubro hinges over the years with slow epoxy and a dab of Vasoline on the hinge pin. Never had one fail unless there was nothing left of the airplane from a crash. I don't pin them either, but I do scribe them or score them with an Exacto knife. On both halfs on both sides, I score them about a dozen times so the epoxy has something to grip. I then add the Vasoline with a Q-tip lightly, and put the glue into the slot with a flatten soda straw. Then a light smear of glue to wet the surface of the hinge and slide it in. Only thing to consider is keeping all the hinge pins in a line for free action.
Here is a picture of a hinged surface.
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You made my blood run cold with this one...
screws can and do back out...covering isn't going to stop the screws from backing out...just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't...
the proper way to use these hinges is to glue them into place and pin them....
the thing to remember is that in any pattern there is alwys a turn that puts the airplane flying to the pits
screws can and do back out...covering isn't going to stop the screws from backing out...just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it can't...
the proper way to use these hinges is to glue them into place and pin them....
the thing to remember is that in any pattern there is alwys a turn that puts the airplane flying to the pits
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"A Fourstar 120 is a fairly large bird and the kit comes with CA hinges. The nylon hinges are much more flexible but the hinge has to be a bit inset into the control surface to limit the gap. It's a PIA to keep glue off the hinge line."
To keep glue out of the hinge line and hinge joint is fairly easy.
In a shallow METAL container put some vasoline. CAREFULLY heat the vasoline until it is a liquid. Now take your hinge and fold it in half and dip JUST THE HINGE JOINT in the liquid vasoline. Set this aside on a paper towel and do the next hinge. Reheat the vasoline as needed to keep it liquid (A cigarette lighter used on the bottom of the container works well). Any glue or epoxy you use will not get into the hinge or hinge line.
To keep glue out of the hinge line and hinge joint is fairly easy.
In a shallow METAL container put some vasoline. CAREFULLY heat the vasoline until it is a liquid. Now take your hinge and fold it in half and dip JUST THE HINGE JOINT in the liquid vasoline. Set this aside on a paper towel and do the next hinge. Reheat the vasoline as needed to keep it liquid (A cigarette lighter used on the bottom of the container works well). Any glue or epoxy you use will not get into the hinge or hinge line.
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Campy That is the reason I still read these threads. Yours was one of the simplest and easiest tips, and one I had never heard before. Much easier than the vaseline with a toothpick applicator I'm used to! Thanks for the addition!
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I always glue my hinges. On the larger birds I install the hinges (Dubro 1/4 scale nylon) with epoxy and then cover after hinges are installed. This works well on the larger planes. I just install the hinges after covering on the smaller planes.
Just for the sake of discussion though some wooden ultralight and light experimental full scale aircraft use aluminum hinges set into sloted wood and secured with bolts through the wood and hinge to retain control surface hinges. Some of the aluminum aircraft use aluminum sheet metal skins as their control surface hinge.
I can see where a correctly installed model airplane hinge tightly installed and secured with a wood screw into hardwood, not balsa would be sufficient to retain a control hinge. It would be a lot heavier and more work to do it this way instead of just gluing the hinge in the first place.
Glue the hinge and if your concerned about security then pin the hinge with glued in toothpicks or your screw. I would suggest you not rely on just the screw.
Just for the sake of discussion though some wooden ultralight and light experimental full scale aircraft use aluminum hinges set into sloted wood and secured with bolts through the wood and hinge to retain control surface hinges. Some of the aluminum aircraft use aluminum sheet metal skins as their control surface hinge.
I can see where a correctly installed model airplane hinge tightly installed and secured with a wood screw into hardwood, not balsa would be sufficient to retain a control hinge. It would be a lot heavier and more work to do it this way instead of just gluing the hinge in the first place.
Glue the hinge and if your concerned about security then pin the hinge with glued in toothpicks or your screw. I would suggest you not rely on just the screw.
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I do what campy does but use A spray oil. Then I started using Pacer Hinge glue instead of CA, I never have used epoxy, Gorilla glue A time or two. I used to always drill through the wood on one side and through the hings and slightly into the wood on the other side of the hinge then just squirt some thick CA into the hole. I stuck tooth picks through that hole and let the glue set up. Cut off the tooth pick and sanded flat. Never have had A hinge come loose. The pacer hinge glue works great and if you get some glue on the hinge it just snaps off when you flex the hinges. Water also removes it before it sets.
If you think the screws are A good idea then go for it, why bother asking?
If you think the screws are A good idea then go for it, why bother asking?
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On my Bruce Tharpe Venture 60 I used the Dubro hinges and drilled them and inserted toothpicks. sanded down the toothpicks and put the tiniest amount of Thin Ca using an applicator tip. My reasoning was if i ever needed to remove the control surface i could drill out the toothpicks. Probably was'nt such a good plan. Knowing that the toothpicks are harder than the surrounding bals and the drill bit would probably walk off anyway. But it is strong never have to worry about glue getting in the pivot.
As far as putting vaseline or a drop of oil on the pin i never was comfortable about putting oil on the control surfaces to be soaked into the wood. Yes i know you are not putting the oil on the wood but as soon as you put the hinge up to center point the oil invariably is now touching both sides. where does some of the oil go? pretty sure some of it will go into the wood.
I have almost 200 flights on this setup. And it's works perfectly.
For what it's worth i don't build turbine models. But if i did i would have no problem using the hinges that way. The screw or the toothpicks are stronger than the surrounding balsa wood. so any failure would occur from the balsa failing not the hinge attachment method.
As for the CA hinges i use them on my pattern models and no failures there either. All the hinge failures i have ever seen on a CA hinge could invariably are caused by the installer. using a medium or thick CA. or just adding way to much Thin CA. Glueing in one side then sliding on the other side and adding more glue. Try and rip apart a CA hinge, try your fingers. pretty pointless was'nt it. Now try it using a pair of pliers. still pretty pointless. I have used different brands of CA hinges and never had a problem with any of them. Now these are Brandname hinges. Such as Sig,Greatplanes and RadioSouth. But never had a problem with any of them.
As far as putting vaseline or a drop of oil on the pin i never was comfortable about putting oil on the control surfaces to be soaked into the wood. Yes i know you are not putting the oil on the wood but as soon as you put the hinge up to center point the oil invariably is now touching both sides. where does some of the oil go? pretty sure some of it will go into the wood.
I have almost 200 flights on this setup. And it's works perfectly.
For what it's worth i don't build turbine models. But if i did i would have no problem using the hinges that way. The screw or the toothpicks are stronger than the surrounding balsa wood. so any failure would occur from the balsa failing not the hinge attachment method.
As for the CA hinges i use them on my pattern models and no failures there either. All the hinge failures i have ever seen on a CA hinge could invariably are caused by the installer. using a medium or thick CA. or just adding way to much Thin CA. Glueing in one side then sliding on the other side and adding more glue. Try and rip apart a CA hinge, try your fingers. pretty pointless was'nt it. Now try it using a pair of pliers. still pretty pointless. I have used different brands of CA hinges and never had a problem with any of them. Now these are Brandname hinges. Such as Sig,Greatplanes and RadioSouth. But never had a problem with any of them.
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When experimenting I have put several control surface’s on with screws. None have failed and the screws don’t come loose. Usually I harden the wood and use two screws per hinge side. Like everything else one needs to be cautious.
Bill
Bill
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I've never been around small aluminum aircraft...you can only bend aluminum so many times before it breaks.....I wouldn't fly on anything with a sheet aluminum hinge
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The experimental aircraft that does use the skin as a hinge has done it since 1984 without failure. The Zenith aircraft design "Zodiac" uses the .016 aileron skin as the hinge.
http://www.whiteantelopesoftware.com...faq.htm#DOESNT
http://www.whiteantelopesoftware.com...faq.htm#DOESNT
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the deflection on the aileron must be small...still I wouldn't do it...small deflection means you can bend it more times before it breaks..but break it will...and as per the drawing it didn't have any down
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I suggest you look again. There is movement in both directions. Most GA aircraft have differential, so the need for down is less than up. While I would not have done this either, it has been done with apparent success for 28 years on this design.
In the early years of RC, there was a hinge known as a living hinge that was a plastic that was flexible. Now we have the CA hinge, and some racing models use a skin hinge very much like the Zodiac. It all depends upon material properties and the application.
In the early years of RC, there was a hinge known as a living hinge that was a plastic that was flexible. Now we have the CA hinge, and some racing models use a skin hinge very much like the Zodiac. It all depends upon material properties and the application.
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ORIGINAL: d_bodary
On my Bruce Tharpe Venture 60 I used the Dubro hinges and drilled them and inserted toothpicks. sanded down the toothpicks and put the tiniest amount of Thin Ca using an applicator tip. My reasoning was if i ever needed to remove the control surface i could drill out the toothpicks. Probably was'nt such a good plan. Knowing that the toothpicks are harder than the surrounding bals and the drill bit would probably walk off anyway. But it is strong never have to worry about glue getting in the pivot.
As far as putting vaseline or a drop of oil on the pin i never was comfortable about putting oil on the control surfaces to be soaked into the wood. Yes i know you are not putting the oil on the wood but as soon as you put the hinge up to center point the oil invariably is now touching both sides. where does some of the oil go? pretty sure some of it will go into the wood.
I have almost 200 flights on this setup. And it's works perfectly.
For what it's worth i don't build turbine models. But if i did i would have no problem using the hinges that way. The screw or the toothpicks are stronger than the surrounding balsa wood. so any failure would occur from the balsa failing not the hinge attachment method.
On my Bruce Tharpe Venture 60 I used the Dubro hinges and drilled them and inserted toothpicks. sanded down the toothpicks and put the tiniest amount of Thin Ca using an applicator tip. My reasoning was if i ever needed to remove the control surface i could drill out the toothpicks. Probably was'nt such a good plan. Knowing that the toothpicks are harder than the surrounding bals and the drill bit would probably walk off anyway. But it is strong never have to worry about glue getting in the pivot.
As far as putting vaseline or a drop of oil on the pin i never was comfortable about putting oil on the control surfaces to be soaked into the wood. Yes i know you are not putting the oil on the wood but as soon as you put the hinge up to center point the oil invariably is now touching both sides. where does some of the oil go? pretty sure some of it will go into the wood.
I have almost 200 flights on this setup. And it's works perfectly.
For what it's worth i don't build turbine models. But if i did i would have no problem using the hinges that way. The screw or the toothpicks are stronger than the surrounding balsa wood. so any failure would occur from the balsa failing not the hinge attachment method.
It seems like using two small screws per hinge half, to avoid lateral play along the hinge line and using a bit of thin ca to strengthen the screw holes and should work. I do not mean to downplay the other advice in this thread since opinions are what I asked for.
High planes is right. My senior telemaster even with a tower .75 has often been mired in stale farts, unable to out run them. Still I believe I can make an extremely strong hinge connection without resorting to using epoxy and gluing them in the traditional way. Im going to try some small screws and thin ca in some scrap and stress it till it fails and see how much pressure it takes.......
Thanks to all,
Rich
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I meant to ask in my last response if any of the earlier respondents use the method described in the fourstar manual and plans of attaching the wings to the plane. Sig would have you tap two tiny hard wood blocks for the included nylon screws. This seems far more flimsy than what I have in mind for the control surfaces. On my last fourstar I used threaded brass inserts for the wing bolts. This time I'll be using blind nuts behing the hardwood blocks......
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Not what you ask in the last post but check out post #45 and #46 at this thread
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_15...tm.htm#1538947
Haven't had one fail yet, it's pinned and glued and invisible
Don
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_15...tm.htm#1538947
Haven't had one fail yet, it's pinned and glued and invisible
Don
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Hattend, excellent example of my latest thoughts on this! I was picturing screws given the way I'd seen my Telemaster put together but your toothpick method looks brilliant. I may substitute bamboo skewers but I think you've got a winner there......
I should probably change the title of this thread now to "Anyone using nylon hinges without the mess of epoxy?"
I should probably change the title of this thread now to "Anyone using nylon hinges without the mess of epoxy?"