Carpilot

I joined to get the insurance coverage and to fly at a sanctioned field here, although the field is on public land and the posted rules say AMA membership is "requested".

Mode One

Your kidding, right? The politics about the AMA is far and away higher here at the AMA topic on R/CU, then anywhere else!

aeajr

My Feedback: (2)

Let's bring this to the top.

What do you guys think?

Why joine the AMA?

Do you value the AMA clubs and their flying fields?

How about club instruction?

Do you value the AMA insurance?


What are your thoughts?

Personally I am a member of an AMA club ( an officer) and a big supporter of AMA as a force in our industry looking out for our right to fly.  But what do you think?

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

This is a very old thread...just when people were being so nice around here...oh well...

aeajr

My Feedback: (2)

You know LCS, you are right. I should have left this one alone.</p>

P-51B

My Feedback: (5)

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Hossfly

Then there is the other side. Very few folks talking much. Bringing up old threads illustrate that old problems still exist even after much discussion.
Just like the News, a subject explodes, the news people do all their crying and moaning how the rich mistreat the poor and illegal, and only they, the news people, have enough sense to speak of whatever it is/was. Then the subject slithers away with some new crisis erupting and then the "ordained" rally again, off on the current crusade. Then if you notice, the politicians may spoof and spoof each other but NOTHING gets done!

Of course here, the newcomers read the latest eruption, have not a clue what is being discussed, and off they go to either just fly their toys or crash again same as yesterday. Yet, they can see that the same old subjects come up and die away, same as a few months/years ago. Then today's newbies simply say, "Why Bother?" and fade back into the sunset, BUT, with just maybe a seed planted might germinate into a new AMA officer and there is some chance things just may be discussed again, and maybe something could happen for the good.

Kind of like the chance of winning the lottery, or getting a Congressman to quit sewing new pockets on his pants for his promoters to fill with gold-stocks, yet, "....nothing ventured, nothing gained!" Hey. go fer it! [sm=greedy.gif]

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

I joined the AMA for the insurance when I was much younger. The AMA insurance wasn't secondary then. It was the only insurance that I owned.

I value the AMA clubs. But I also value the non-AMA clubs.

Instruction ? Thats not an AMA exclusive either. Non-AMA clubs instruct also. At a non-AMA club, a new person asks forinstruction and all the members point to the best pilot present. "Get him to teach you", they will say. At AMA clubs, the instructors must sign up ahead of time and are often the most eager to voluntee; but are often the leastqualified to teach. Sorry. I know that will draw heat. But I've watched that for decades.

I do value the AMA insurance. As a person gets older, they accumulate wealth and needto protect that wealth. The individual AMA insurance is a good deal. But when multiplied by the club membership it becomes a very expensive liabilty only policy that leaves the club fairly vulnerable. So, it is somewhat lacking when looking at it from the club's perspective.

The AMA , in my opinion, is a tiny organization. It is full of well meaning folks.

At one time it was clearlyat the center of the hobby. The AMA NATS were the ying and yang of competitionand standing in the hobby. Having retreated somewhat from that position and having physically retreated from Washington, the organization appears much weaker today. With the land purchase in Muncie and the growth in staff over the years, it appears the organization's primary concerns have shifted or at least, become less focused.Political and technical challenges are often resolved in the market place. (Not a bad thing). The AMA does not knock on doors and proselytize the hobby to non-believers, although it claims to promote the hobby in some non-tangible way. I'm not entirely clear on the need for a staff in Muncie nowadays or for a relatively unpopular magazine.

As is often the case with good organizations that have survived for generations, heirs and heiresses have inherited a pure idea and are paralyzed with the fear of corrupting the core ideal but are unable to apply it toa world that has evolved and changed enough to demand new tactics. Its just history. Things peak. Things fail. Companies, countries, economies, theologies, you name it. Unless you find people as good as the ones you started with, you are doomed to decline. Its not an AMA thing. Its just the world we live in. And I have seen a better AMA than the one we have now.

K-Bob

My Feedback: (1)

Overall a good post but where did you pull this statement from?Our club is AMA sanctioned and the instuction goes pretty much like your description of the non-AMAclub. In fact, of the 3 or 4 AMA clubsI visit, ithappens the same way.

koastrc

Spoken like a charter member of the S. A. G.

aeajr

My Feedback: (2)

I would agree with you k-Bob. Frank's post was well written and well presented. However our AMAclub doesn't work as he describes either, when it comes to instruction. All Sr. pilots are eligable to instruct. Everyone helps out. There is no "sign-up" for instructors or students. Seems to work well for us.

cj_rumley

At an AMA chartered club where I fly, club rules are in place that require a designated instructor check out all guest flyers, and they are the only ones allowed to provide a newbie with the AMA allowed once-per-lifetime buddy box flight. These guest rules are widely ignored, ergo the net effect is to create more exclusions from the insurance coverage, per rule 1. of the Safety code:
" 1. I will not willfully fly my model aircraft in a careless or reckless manner, and will abide by this Safety Code and any additional rules specific to flying sites."

Maybe Frank's experience with AMA clubs is with examples as rule-bound as this.

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

Since so many have voiced different observations from my own, I will expand on my observations. Apparently they are not universal. Our club has designated club instructors.

My experience , or my observation has been thatmany,(NOTALL, but maybe a third) ,of the designated AMA club instuctors are relatively new to the hobby, OR they expound bad scienceand poor technique OR they are so old and decrepit that "saving" an airplane is often the simple act of having a successful lesson.

An designated instructor shouldhave the skill and acuities neccessary for saving anytrainer from practically any situation. An instructor should be knowledgeable about the physics involved in flight AND must be articulate enough to teach those principles to others.

The "club politics" often cause members to steer clear of offending woodbe instructors and rubberstamps the approval of most any willing person, qualified or not. And ask the club membership what "qualified" means and you will recievea wild variance of answers because themembers have a wild variance of knowledge themselves. Some are serious life long enthusiasts, some are just enthusiastic. Some are very educated on the subject and some are not.(some belong on a Capital One commercial)

aeajr

My Feedback: (2)

Interesting that we have gotten onto the topic of flight instruction as I have been having a conversation about this with a group of people.

As we know, clubs are free to set their own standards and designate their own training programs. AMA does not dictate this to the clubs.

If you were to devise a standard training practice, what would you recommend to AMA so they could recommend it to the clubs?

Be sure to put this into the context of what is being flown. Clearly training might vary between Helis, glow, gas, turbine, electric and glider pilots, assuming these are all RC pilots.

Is a training program required for control line, free flight or whatever other forms of flying thatmight be involved?

How does one graduate from yourtraining program?


As to instructors, how do we select or qualify instructors? Or should any senior pilot be allowed to teach? What is your opinion?

Should there be an instructor'stest? What should it be?

Minimum qualifications to be an instructor? What should those be?

If we get some good feedback, maybe we devise a program and submit it to AMA. AMA can then consider as to whether to recommend it to the clubs.

What is your opinion?

TexasAirBoss

My Feedback: (22)

The AMA could very easily make available a good ground school text book for trainees and their instructors to use. Teach the real physics and principles involved. There are already several very good ground school textbook available for student pilots. Contacting the publishers and expressing an interest in an abreviated version for modellers(minus the FAR's and navigation, etc.) might be an easy fix.

If you want to incorperate lesson plans in the book or in a supplimental text, that might be a good idea . Thats a larger task than I am not willing to attempt here and now.

Either avoid designated instructors orremove the politics of selecting them. I don't know how that might be done. Perhaps a person could be nominated, voted on, andthen approachto determine if they are interested. I don't know, I'm just spit balling here.The club equivilant of everyone pointing and saying, " thats the guy you want to teach youu, over there."

Designing an entire curriculum is a huge task. Perhaps that is why it hasn't been done.Doing it by committeedoes not seem like it will yeild a very coherent product. I would look for a willing party knowlegeable in aviation and in education and set them to the task. Get some coherent product and then have the committee, ( the smaller the better) adopt it or not.

It is one thing to mine for ideas here so that theymight be incorperated into a likely product. But I wouldn't attempt to actually produce the product here.

theriddler33872

i just wanted to chime in here , i'm not a ama member nor do i wish to be at this time, i have my reasons, but i have to ask , i was watching this utuber and what i saw him doing , well lets say it violates just about every rule the ama has , and he is a ama member .
one vid in particular you see him fly a edf jet full throttle into a building , while his girlfriend wonders aloud if she should turn the camera off , now i understand the ama can not control what there members do , while they are not at a sanctioned club or field or what have you, butreally is this the type, of letscall this person a child to hold a valid ama card, i would think since the ama is all about safety they would not .
2 other vids show this same child buzzing houses and losing control of a plane and just watchs it disappear behind what looks like apartments, while he stands on his back porch, it is quite intriguing he represents in some small way the ama i would think at least his club would see some of this and say something but hey who i'm i to say .
i'd like to think that even someone such as myself that is not a ama member , knows and understands that regardless we should all follow simple common sense rules, i've been flying for 20+ years and have never seen someone so reckless as that 24 year old child on utube (this child with a ama card to boot) . maybe it's because the real stupid now have access to web cameras i don't know .
side note : one of my reasons not to join the ama is due to some of the people i see that just like this person , in some way represents the ama , although they at least were competent pilots .
one more thing by the way, lets get the insurance b.s. straight the ama only covers a individual at a ama sanctioned field or at a place where the individual has written permission ,so stop all the b.s. about insurance cause the insurance is conditional. example the tampa fl. incident even the ama stated that if the pilot was a member it was not a sanctioned area therefore the pilot would not have been covered, it was a city park .
but i give it to the ama for helping the girl and her family out even though the pilot was not a ama member , so i applaud the ama for that .

Muroc1

AMA's liability insurance will cover you even when you are not flying at a chartered club's field. See 500J: http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/500-j.pdf Perhaps we can put that myth to bed once and for all?

And have a look at this. I'm sure some would be surprised to see this: http://www.modelaircraft.org/forums/tm.aspx?m=2505

And, the guy flying the Heli was an AMA member. See this: http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutam...iAccident.aspx. Model aviation enthusiats raised over $11,000 in a show of support for her and model aviation. http://www.helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=208576

Frank

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

The page you requested at [http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutam...ccident.aspx.] could not be found. Please update your bookmarks. If you came from another site, please inform them of their bad link. We apologize for any inconvenience.



Wonder where it went?

KidEpoxy

ok, Helifreak and Runryder gave $10k,
how much did AMA give?

I mean, sure AMA wouldnt be required to pay out insurance for its member flying illegally,
but then Helifreak wasnt required to pay anything either.



We hear about needing AMA insurance so we dont lose our house/car/assets if we hurt someone,
yet it looks like Helifreak/Rr is covering that AMA members assets where AMA isnt?
Wouldnt USAmA insurance pay since the cops said it was not chargable,
and there is no USAmA safety code to void their insurance?

theriddler33872

ok i really don't want this to turn into a peeing match , this is what it says for one ........AMA coverage in not limited to modelflying at contest or at a club field , it applies to flying on private property , at public demonstrations and at air shows lets brake this down as i stated writen premission would be private property the heli pilot did not have writen premission , it's a city park and the reason the city( tampa ) did not press charges is that the law is writen in a way that doesn't really limit that kind of activity .
number two the heli pilot,i live in florida not to far from tampa and i think you are confusing the pilot they interviewed with the pilot that hit the girl ( the video can be found on fox 13 news tampa ). but ok lets say he was ama just for the reason to satisfy you ( although the pilot is not ama ) , the pilot was buzzing this poor 17 year old girl , how can i draw such a conclusion thats easy the girl stated in her interview she heard the heli going around her and it keep sounding like it was getting closer .......hmmmmm i wonder , the pilot claims he had a component failure of a part that rarely fails .so if he is ama he kinda falls under my statement again, is this the kind of person the ama in some small way wants representing them?before you make anymore statements watch the news please no where on the news do they state the pilot is or is not ama .although the pilot they interviewed was, he made a statement that would lead people to believe the pilots that did this were not ama .
number three , i said i applaud the ama for helping this girl and her family out i didn't remember the amount .
and just to let you know i wasn't referring to the tampa incident but once again just goes to my point .
if the insurance is conditional like it is with the ama thenit's worthless , but to give someone the sense that they are covered when in fact they are not is the b.s. i'm talking about , i pay $106 a year for my home owners insurance which covers me in the event i have a accident , and we all have accidents it's just part of our hobby , although if it was something that could have been avoided, then it should have been avoided , that is why i keep saying the biggest ruleto follow is to fly with common sense .

theriddler33872

kidepoxy... the ama did give something i really don't know how much it was now ...... and the family of this girl are sueing the pilots ( if you want to call them that ) for medical bills and the big one pain and suffering . so these college students better get good degrees because they well be paying this family for the rest of there lives ............

KidEpoxy

Only reason I figured he was AMA was cause I read
You make an interesting case that AMA insurance SHOULD indeed pay if it was flying within the law and was mech failure,
if the AMA pres statement in print that the pilot was AMA can be believed
over your declaration that DM was wrong about the pilots membership along with the local prohibition

Please post some links (as I have) as to where your info is coming from
regarding Membership, Legality, and AMA $Contribution

theriddler33872

i might be mistaken and that would be totally my fault , i never read anything from the ama so that would be my ignorance .i'm talking about the news cast no where in the news did they say if he was ama or not , they had interviewed a heli pilot that i believe is a club president in the tampa area and what he said kinda makes you believe that the 2 guys that were involved were not affiliated with the ama .
but of coarse i'd probably do the same if it was going to mean bad press for a national organization ..........

the local tv links : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KD1gB...eature=related .....first link didn't work but you can go to my fox 13 news tampa and pull up the story this one is not the best but it is the same .

now the criminal charges were dropped because there is no real law that says the people couldn't be doing what they were doing . but if you listen to the guy they are interviewing it does make you wonder whats up , if i'm wrong i'm wrong and i apologize .
there are 2 other news cast one before this one and one after but this is the one of interest .

but still the ama claimed insurance is still conditional no matter how you look at , the people involved in this said it was a esc that went bad but still due to the way the law was writen the ama would have left anyone hanging, thats why i am self insured , i thought about joining till i learned that the insurance is worthless, at least for someone like me with good home owners insurance and yes i've checked with my agent and i am covered , the $106 sounds higher i know but me my house and my two pitbulls are completely covered .
and the club out in this area although they are ama covered don't really need to be they are surrounded by trash , no homes no cars but for there own , no people but themselfs , so i can't use the public, county owned property they are on, oh well. i've got some really good places i can go to everyday if i wantedand everywhere i've lived in the last 20 some years i've always found places to do my thing .

you don't need the ama the ama needs you .............

theriddler33872

kidepoxy ......i looked at the post on your link it sounds like someone is sugar coating the story watch the news cast the girl says she heard the heli on one side of her then on the next and it sounded like it was getting closer .....
this was someone having fun at someone elses expense , the ama ever do a update on the story ?
they said charges were going to be filed ..........the d/a is not pressing any charges the law does not say you can't do what they were doing .
and finally you would think if you were a responsable individual you would have stayed and answered the police's questions not sneak out once ems and the law showed up especially if you were a ama member , i know what i would have done and i am sure there are alot of people that would do the right thing ,but really once again i ask in some small way are these the few individuals that the ama wants to represent because these are the people that are making it on camera on behalf of the ama ,weather the ama wants them to or not . the other one i'm talking of is also on utube .

Tarasdad

The AMA insurance is only a side benefit. What you really get is an organization that represents the modeler on a national level, such as the current talks with the FAA regarding the formation of UAS guidelines. If you don't think these could have a major impact on your ability to fly RC aircraft and helis then think again. Given free reign the FAA will most likely institute a set of regulations that will shut down all or nearly all recreational RC flight. The AMA is representing ALL aeromodelers in these discussions, not just AMA members. It remains to be seen just how restrictive the FAA will be but it is far more likely to have a minimal impact on our hobby because of the AMA.

Don't sell the AMA liability insurance short. Sure, your homeowner's policy would be primary - as long as you have it, that is. I guarantee the first claim made against it would be the last because you wouldn't have it any more after that. I also guarantee that they'd pay policy limit and not one penny more, leaving YOU to come up with the cash for anything over that amount. Given your average "pain and suffering" judgement you can bet your house, car, every personal belonging you have that you WILL be paying way more than your policy will cover.

There are a great many other ways in which the AMA benefits its members and the aeromodeling community in general.

As for the Tampa incident I have never heard or read a clear and concise report regarding whether flying RC helis or any other aircraft in that location is legal or not. If it isn't, then to me there's no question of the AMA needing to come to the pilot's aid in any way, shape or form. In fact, if it flying there is in fact prohibited and that person IS an AMAmember then he should have his membership revoked forthwith, as he was flying in clear violation of the AMASafety Code. If flying there was not, in fact, prohibited then there is still the question of whether he was abiding by the Safety Code. I have never seen anything that states unequivocally one way or the other. Then again, I haven't paid close attention to the incident in a while, so could have missed out on such info. Either way my sympathies and support go entirely to the young woman who is the victim here and her mother.