K&B engines - why they were so great.
03-05-2002, 05:42 PM
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K&B engines - why they were so great.
After WWII, when non-military industrial production got into full swing, the popular form of flying was control line. There were many different engines available, but the big 3 were Fox, McCoy, and K&B Allyn, who made the Torpedo line. Duke Fox’s Stunt .35 proved to be the most effective engine for stunt competition in appropriately light airplanes due to it’s "4-2-4 break". But if you wanted more power you needed a Torpedo or a McCoy. These engines ran better when tuned for a straight 2-stroke run. K&B and McCoy capitalized on this by developing their engines for more and more power and found themselves at the top of the heap in control line speed and free flight competitions. By the late ‘50s Duke Fox’s Stunt .35 proved nearly unbeatable in C/L stunt and Testors had bought out McCoy, allowing quality to slip a little in the transition. (In defense of Testors, their goal was to make the most "affordable" engines of the time.) This left K&B as the only major American manufacturer developing engines for all out power.
In the early ‘60s, K&B employee Bill Wisniewski designed a series of engines that would have a profound impact on the model engine industry for nearly 20 years. This was the Torpedo .29, .35 and .40. Interestingly enough, these engines had a lot in common with the old McCoy speed engines - 2 piece aluminum crank case, rear or front intake, side exhaust, aluminum fins, and ball bearing supported crankshaft. Within 10 years this series was developed into the highly successful .40 size Formula 1 pylon racing engine which featured a steel sleeve with a Dykes-ringed aluminum piston, rear mounted carb and a machined barstock head. The only competition this powerful engine had was the heavier Supertigre G40 that George Aldrich and Terry Prather were developing for C/L speed and R/C pylon with mixed success. At the same time the front intake version of the K&B .40 was enjoying record sales due to it’s power and ease of handling.
While Bill Wisniewski was developing the Torpedo series of engines Clarence Lee was working on the Veco .61 that K&B agreed to produce in their factory. This engine started out as a .45 but due to the need for more power in the R/C pattern planes of the time it was soon enlarged to a .61. By 1969 this was THE engine to have in pattern competition. It’s only real competition at the time came from the expensive, hard to find Webra Black Head.
By the mid ‘70s the imports started to make successful inroads in the American R/C market. The most important manufacturer at this time would have to be O.S. In 1974 they released the .40 and .60 FS-R schnuerle ported engines. Looking back, the best feature of these engines was probably not their schneurle porting but the effective mufflers these engines were shipped with. They also came with metal carbs that were better than the plastic Perry carbs people were putting on their R/C engines. This effective and powerful combination would soon have a very large impact on K&B’s sales and by the mid ‘80s O.S. would surpass K&B in the number of R/C engines sold.
Looking back one has to wonder why, when K&B had such strong engines in Pattern and Formula 1 competition they waited until the ‘90s to release their front intake, side exhaust, ABC, schneurle ported sport engines. By this time it was just too late. Bill Bennet of Circus Circus Casinos had bought the company from the Broadbecks (the "B" of K&B) and was running into financial difficulties himself. Quality was not what it used to be and neither were sales. He was left with no choice but to liquidate. It was then that Randy Linsalato of RJL/MECOA stepped in and bought the rights and tooling of all the K&B engines and promised to get production up and running as soon as he could. Sadly, though, the legacy of K&B’s dominance in model airplane competition had been tarnished extensively by the struggles of the last 15 years and Mr. Linsalato acquired a product line that was just a shadow of it’s former self.
In the early ‘60s, K&B employee Bill Wisniewski designed a series of engines that would have a profound impact on the model engine industry for nearly 20 years. This was the Torpedo .29, .35 and .40. Interestingly enough, these engines had a lot in common with the old McCoy speed engines - 2 piece aluminum crank case, rear or front intake, side exhaust, aluminum fins, and ball bearing supported crankshaft. Within 10 years this series was developed into the highly successful .40 size Formula 1 pylon racing engine which featured a steel sleeve with a Dykes-ringed aluminum piston, rear mounted carb and a machined barstock head. The only competition this powerful engine had was the heavier Supertigre G40 that George Aldrich and Terry Prather were developing for C/L speed and R/C pylon with mixed success. At the same time the front intake version of the K&B .40 was enjoying record sales due to it’s power and ease of handling.
While Bill Wisniewski was developing the Torpedo series of engines Clarence Lee was working on the Veco .61 that K&B agreed to produce in their factory. This engine started out as a .45 but due to the need for more power in the R/C pattern planes of the time it was soon enlarged to a .61. By 1969 this was THE engine to have in pattern competition. It’s only real competition at the time came from the expensive, hard to find Webra Black Head.
By the mid ‘70s the imports started to make successful inroads in the American R/C market. The most important manufacturer at this time would have to be O.S. In 1974 they released the .40 and .60 FS-R schnuerle ported engines. Looking back, the best feature of these engines was probably not their schneurle porting but the effective mufflers these engines were shipped with. They also came with metal carbs that were better than the plastic Perry carbs people were putting on their R/C engines. This effective and powerful combination would soon have a very large impact on K&B’s sales and by the mid ‘80s O.S. would surpass K&B in the number of R/C engines sold.
Looking back one has to wonder why, when K&B had such strong engines in Pattern and Formula 1 competition they waited until the ‘90s to release their front intake, side exhaust, ABC, schneurle ported sport engines. By this time it was just too late. Bill Bennet of Circus Circus Casinos had bought the company from the Broadbecks (the "B" of K&B) and was running into financial difficulties himself. Quality was not what it used to be and neither were sales. He was left with no choice but to liquidate. It was then that Randy Linsalato of RJL/MECOA stepped in and bought the rights and tooling of all the K&B engines and promised to get production up and running as soon as he could. Sadly, though, the legacy of K&B’s dominance in model airplane competition had been tarnished extensively by the struggles of the last 15 years and Mr. Linsalato acquired a product line that was just a shadow of it’s former self.
03-05-2002, 06:30 PM
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K&B
Continuing with some unsaid history of K&B in the early 80's to compete with some of the foreign motors that were flooding the market, K&B introduced the sportster series of motors starting with the 20 and then the 45 ,28, and finally the 65.
Unfortunately for them they intro'd their motors at the same time as a major hobby distributer introduced their house brand fuel. this fuel was lower on oil and cheaper then any of the major fuel suppliers. It also was one of the first completely synthetic oil based fuels. To compete most fuel suppliers started making a cheaper fuel, that is having less then the traditional 22% oil in their fuel. Fox Superfuel has 29% oil in it. As most of the fuel of the day were predominately castor based, K&B introduced the first synthetic based fuel with their X2C oil probably with no premonition of the impending floodgate of really bad fuel that would flood the market for several years after.
However a plain bearing motor does not do well with low oil and all synthetic oil at that, add to the fact that the sportster series were basically all high grade silicon aluminum and no bushing in the crankshaft and the stage was set for massive engine failures. So bad was it that K&B discontinued their lifetime warrenty on engines. The damage had been done though as the reputation of the sportsters was ruined beyond redemption even with the subsequent addition of the brass bushing in the crancase for the shaft.
to be fair the Sportster was/ is a sound design that with decent fuel and suprisingly the use of larger then the factory recommended props , has an unusually long and productive life
Unfortunately for them they intro'd their motors at the same time as a major hobby distributer introduced their house brand fuel. this fuel was lower on oil and cheaper then any of the major fuel suppliers. It also was one of the first completely synthetic oil based fuels. To compete most fuel suppliers started making a cheaper fuel, that is having less then the traditional 22% oil in their fuel. Fox Superfuel has 29% oil in it. As most of the fuel of the day were predominately castor based, K&B introduced the first synthetic based fuel with their X2C oil probably with no premonition of the impending floodgate of really bad fuel that would flood the market for several years after.
However a plain bearing motor does not do well with low oil and all synthetic oil at that, add to the fact that the sportster series were basically all high grade silicon aluminum and no bushing in the crankshaft and the stage was set for massive engine failures. So bad was it that K&B discontinued their lifetime warrenty on engines. The damage had been done though as the reputation of the sportsters was ruined beyond redemption even with the subsequent addition of the brass bushing in the crancase for the shaft.
to be fair the Sportster was/ is a sound design that with decent fuel and suprisingly the use of larger then the factory recommended props , has an unusually long and productive life
03-05-2002, 07:19 PM
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How true about the Sportster
I learned to fly with a Sportster 45. Fed a steady diet of Sig Champion 2-stroke (20% oil, 50/50 castor-syn) it was a very reliable and unusually strong bushing engine. I still have it and it likes an 11x5 APC prop, on which it pulls a 40 size trainer with good authority. None of the LA, FP, GP bushing engines can generate near the thrust.
One of our modellers (a good pilot and builder) aquired one on an old telemaster. He is a synthetic oil devotee, running 100% syn oil fuel in everything. Everytime he tried to fly the sportster, it would quit just a minute or two into flight. He knew I had one and asked me to look at it. I loaded it up with Sig, tweaked the needle and never looked back. Ran perfect. A few more runs of the all syn oil would have killed the engine. And I'm sure the engine rather than the choice of lube would have been blamed.
One of our modellers (a good pilot and builder) aquired one on an old telemaster. He is a synthetic oil devotee, running 100% syn oil fuel in everything. Everytime he tried to fly the sportster, it would quit just a minute or two into flight. He knew I had one and asked me to look at it. I loaded it up with Sig, tweaked the needle and never looked back. Ran perfect. A few more runs of the all syn oil would have killed the engine. And I'm sure the engine rather than the choice of lube would have been blamed.
03-07-2002, 08:43 AM
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K&B engines
I agree.
50:50 best quality synth & castor at 20% ...
For the lube. package in most 2 stroke glows nothing else works quite like it. Sig know what they are doing with their fuels. And engines appreciate it. So many engines suffer transition and idle stability problems due to poor quality fuels and the owners blame the engines, because they know no better.
50:50 best quality synth & castor at 20% ...
For the lube. package in most 2 stroke glows nothing else works quite like it. Sig know what they are doing with their fuels. And engines appreciate it. So many engines suffer transition and idle stability problems due to poor quality fuels and the owners blame the engines, because they know no better.
03-07-2002, 09:11 PM
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K&B Quickieee 40
I would like to know how K&B could call a rear exhaust engine in 1999 a Quickiee, when a rear exhaust engine is illegal in Quickiee competition. I bought one for $139.00 in 1999. Not only didn't they know the rules they forgot how to make an engine.
03-07-2002, 09:47 PM
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K&B
In truth to answer your question I think that you would have to contact Bill Wizneweski, Bill Bennett, or John Broadbeck Sr. Certainly most of us do not have access to the reasoning process that went on at K&B at that time. Having no participation in quickee for a lot of years and knowing at that time that the motor of choice was the K&B40 someone else will have to give you that info
Chuck your right on the response. a real fadeout here as that is what I ment to type. Talk about senior moments. Thanks
Chuck your right on the response. a real fadeout here as that is what I ment to type. Talk about senior moments. Thanks
03-08-2002, 01:35 PM
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K&B engines - why they were so great.
Actually, that's Johnny Broadbeck 
John Brodak is an entirely different person. He manufactures some really nice control line kits and goodies.
John Brodak is an entirely different person. He manufactures some really nice control line kits and goodies.
02-25-2003, 07:41 AM
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K&B
K&B engines in there day was ment to be used by people who knew what they where doing!
You can't run 50+ % nitro / tweeking head spacing without being shure of yourself and what your doing..
I think that the aero competition field might have fallen way to the marine competition theater in the later years of the heydey of K&B, but they did have a very strong product line thru the 70s and into the 80s... They really pushed for dominance in the industry, and for a respectible time, had it!
I have very fond memorys of those orange white and purple boxes..
It all started with my first RC engine, a VECO .19 (came in a K&B box) still have it, still good..
then a .40 with perry carb and pump, I can still remember my dad freaking out when he got home from work while I was bench running it for the first time! (no muffler, real loud)
Then I got into boats...
And I had never run a schnuerle ported engine before, and like all model plans before, My DUMAS SORCERER showed a K/B 7.5 cc inboard.. Naturely that's exactly what is in it....
I also have a 3.5cc Car engine thats in my vintage Associated RC500...
I do agree that the carberators left alot to be desired, but remember, some of the most famous K&Bs had NO carb!
for example:
The formula 1 pylon .40, had a venturi with a fuel line cut..
The model 9080 7.5cc inboard had a exhaust throttle..
The model 8800 & 8801 car engines required you to supply your own carb.. (i have an OPS on mine)
And dont forget those insane CL screamers!
I have a modest collection of these engines that are NIB, I feel they are big part of Americam history!!!!
Also I recently had to get a new con rod for my 3.5, and K&B had it!
Anyway, thanks and take care.... MB
You can't run 50+ % nitro / tweeking head spacing without being shure of yourself and what your doing..
I think that the aero competition field might have fallen way to the marine competition theater in the later years of the heydey of K&B, but they did have a very strong product line thru the 70s and into the 80s... They really pushed for dominance in the industry, and for a respectible time, had it!
I have very fond memorys of those orange white and purple boxes..
It all started with my first RC engine, a VECO .19 (came in a K&B box) still have it, still good..
then a .40 with perry carb and pump, I can still remember my dad freaking out when he got home from work while I was bench running it for the first time! (no muffler, real loud)
Then I got into boats...
And I had never run a schnuerle ported engine before, and like all model plans before, My DUMAS SORCERER showed a K/B 7.5 cc inboard.. Naturely that's exactly what is in it....
I also have a 3.5cc Car engine thats in my vintage Associated RC500...
I do agree that the carberators left alot to be desired, but remember, some of the most famous K&Bs had NO carb!
for example:
The formula 1 pylon .40, had a venturi with a fuel line cut..
The model 9080 7.5cc inboard had a exhaust throttle..
The model 8800 & 8801 car engines required you to supply your own carb.. (i have an OPS on mine)
And dont forget those insane CL screamers!
I have a modest collection of these engines that are NIB, I feel they are big part of Americam history!!!!
Also I recently had to get a new con rod for my 3.5, and K&B had it!
Anyway, thanks and take care.... MB
02-25-2003, 11:38 AM
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K&B engines - why they were so great.
I don't get this "period of really bad fuel".
I began the hobby in 1987. The LHS was pushing the K&B Sportster engines. Fortunately for me, the first trainer I bought (used, of course) had an OS 40 FP on it.
There was no club in Monroe then; just a loose confederation of guys flying at an old duster strip. Several of them, both experienced and rookie, bought the Sportster .45. To a man, they had trouble of one sort or another. And the fuel was a suspect; but since there were several different brands being used ( all with castor, as I recall), that was dismissed as a factor.
That 40 FP was a bushed engine, and when I sold it in 1995 (it was on it's fourth airplane by then) it was still running strong.
Those K&B Sportster engines were simply made cheap, and performed accordingly, IMO.
I began the hobby in 1987. The LHS was pushing the K&B Sportster engines. Fortunately for me, the first trainer I bought (used, of course) had an OS 40 FP on it.
There was no club in Monroe then; just a loose confederation of guys flying at an old duster strip. Several of them, both experienced and rookie, bought the Sportster .45. To a man, they had trouble of one sort or another. And the fuel was a suspect; but since there were several different brands being used ( all with castor, as I recall), that was dismissed as a factor.
That 40 FP was a bushed engine, and when I sold it in 1995 (it was on it's fourth airplane by then) it was still running strong.
Those K&B Sportster engines were simply made cheap, and performed accordingly, IMO.
02-25-2003, 04:21 PM
#12
K&B .40
I have had about all brands of .40 size engines. I got a brand new K&B .40 I ran it on the same fuel and set it a tad rich just like all my other engines. It was the ony engine that started to click when turning over by hand. Took it apart and the wrist pin hole in piston wore egg shaped. Had to get new rod pin and piston. Last one I bought. The Supertiger will outlast them by far...no comparison. CaptinJohn
02-25-2003, 04:38 PM
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Lube
For all the reasons mentioned above I use Fox 5% nitro with 20%-50/50 in all my two strokes and they thrive on it. I have three K&Bs, a 100, a .61 Twister and an .18. I like em all.
02-25-2003, 05:36 PM
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K&B engines - why they were so great.
Yepp, sportsters were junk. Went through 3 or 4 , shipped directly from k and b, and John broadbeck, finaly sent me a 7.5 ducted fan engine for an appology. I traded that k and b for an fp 40 that still runs after 15 years.
I made the mistake of putting a k and b on my corsair, but got its problems ironed out.
They cost too much, theyre ugly, they are weak, and I dont see any reason to buy one. And probly never will. They are fine for trainers, and to teach newbies all the engine problems that can arrise. But thats all the positive I can come up with.
K and B....lower yer prices, build better carbs, lighten the engines, make more power, and maybe, just maybe I will consider getting another someday. As for the sportsters.......tape a buck to it, throw it in the lake, and you lost a buck!
d
I made the mistake of putting a k and b on my corsair, but got its problems ironed out.
They cost too much, theyre ugly, they are weak, and I dont see any reason to buy one. And probly never will. They are fine for trainers, and to teach newbies all the engine problems that can arrise. But thats all the positive I can come up with.
K and B....lower yer prices, build better carbs, lighten the engines, make more power, and maybe, just maybe I will consider getting another someday. As for the sportsters.......tape a buck to it, throw it in the lake, and you lost a buck!
d
02-25-2003, 05:55 PM
#15
K&B engines - why they were so great.
Never had a problem with a K&B. The newer ones are very powerfull and reliable. In fact that ducted fan engine you gave away was a very powerfull engine! You guys must be stuck on the Sportsters which had problems when first out. Never had a problem with a wrist pin and hole either. The present carb's are just as good as a Perry carb. Which means that the idle mixture needs to be adjusted with a gentle touch, but otherwise they work just fine.
02-25-2003, 05:57 PM
#16
K&B
I am not sure what 20/20 fuel is as far as lube goes....but I bet it has a lot of castor in it to prevent wear from poor quality metals in the K&B engine. Any fuel worked in all my engines except K&B. Gotta tell it like it is. No K&B engines for me when there is so, so many others out there. CaptinJohn
02-25-2003, 06:12 PM
#18
Re: Kinda Bad K&B
Originally posted by captinjohn
No my engine was not a sporster......it was a 4011 or close to that
No my engine was not a sporster......it was a 4011 or close to that
02-25-2003, 06:20 PM
#19
K&B
sport pilot: I sold it cheap after puting new rod, piston pin and piston. You are a pro K&B fan. Thats OK...but you should own other brands for a while....then you might say... K&B is CHEAP MADE
02-25-2003, 06:29 PM
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K&B engines - why they were so great.
Im with cptjohn on that. Why pay more for a k and b than a supertigre? or a magnum for that matter? K and B would have to realy clean up their act to get that high price from me. Il stick to reliable asp, supertigre, os, thundertigre, and anything else but k and b
If they were better engines, and had better carbs,(when I called them with my carb prolem, they couldnt tell me a thing, and didnt understand which carb I had, and never offered to exchange it for their "new one" which should have a screw holding the mess together. mine didnt, and the barrel could pop right out. ), I might consider it. BTW, i offered the LHS 80 bucks for that .40, and they gladly jumped on it. It had a price of 139.00 on it.
d
d
If they were better engines, and had better carbs,(when I called them with my carb prolem, they couldnt tell me a thing, and didnt understand which carb I had, and never offered to exchange it for their "new one" which should have a screw holding the mess together. mine didnt, and the barrel could pop right out. ), I might consider it. BTW, i offered the LHS 80 bucks for that .40, and they gladly jumped on it. It had a price of 139.00 on it.
d
d
02-25-2003, 06:33 PM
#21
K&B engines - why they were so great.
captinjohn,
If you read my past posts you will see that I also own or have owned, Thunder Tiger, OS, SuperTiger, ASP, and others. A couple I have that I don't think I have posted about are HP and SC. But the SC is the same as ASP and I haven't cranked up either of these engines yet. K&B is not my favorite. But I don't consider them cheap. Except for the Sportsters.
If you read my past posts you will see that I also own or have owned, Thunder Tiger, OS, SuperTiger, ASP, and others. A couple I have that I don't think I have posted about are HP and SC. But the SC is the same as ASP and I haven't cranked up either of these engines yet. K&B is not my favorite. But I don't consider them cheap. Except for the Sportsters.
02-25-2003, 06:40 PM
#22
K&B engines - why they were so great.
Even 80 is too much, this is no powerhouse. Bought mine in 96 or so for about $60. Today you can get a very good .60 for $100.
http://www.modelengine.com/61/6170b.htm
http://www.modelengine.com/61/6170b.htm
02-25-2003, 06:41 PM
#23
engines
I had a HP Goldcup .40 that was the lightest and fastest .40 in its price range. I put a magic muffler on it and when it jumped on the pipe it screamed. Had it on a Hots that had a 3/16 inch thinner wing. Fast for sure.
