enforcing sound limits
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with all these rules on db limits,why are the IMAC contests not enforcing the db limits???people spend a great deal of money trying different props,different cannisters,different length headers,etc. to try and meet these so called "rules",to only find out that the contest's are not enforcing these db rules.so why do we even bother trying to lower the noise levels if we are not going to enforce them?sounds like a conspiracy to get people to spend $$$ on something we dont even need.if the IMAA dont enforce it and the TOC never enforced it(who were supposed to be the role models),then why only IMAC???? tired of the non-sense
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I agree with little extra that if a rule is on the books, then it should be consistently enforced at all contests. My BME 102 had no problem making the noise limits last and this year, but I really can imagine that if I HAD spent money to get quiet with pipes and 3 bladers, then I wouldn't want to hear that I really didn't need to do it.
I don't buy into the "conspiracy" angle, and both the IMAA and (especially) the TOC are another deal entirely. I do understand that some fields don't have a noise issue, but another way to look at it is to understand that the SPORT does have a growing noise issue. I still remember the SHERIFF'S arrival at the Brazil, Indiana IMAC several years ago to shut it down! We've also lost some IMAA events when the bigguns arrived with their prop rippin' engine snarling bigguns. They had fun for the day, but the CLUB had to answer question after everyone had left about noise, overflying, etc. I've no problem with IMAC leading the way with noise restraints, I just think that any rule that on the books should be consistently enforced at ALL meets, so that one setup meets all requirements.
just my .02 cents........
I don't buy into the "conspiracy" angle, and both the IMAA and (especially) the TOC are another deal entirely. I do understand that some fields don't have a noise issue, but another way to look at it is to understand that the SPORT does have a growing noise issue. I still remember the SHERIFF'S arrival at the Brazil, Indiana IMAC several years ago to shut it down! We've also lost some IMAA events when the bigguns arrived with their prop rippin' engine snarling bigguns. They had fun for the day, but the CLUB had to answer question after everyone had left about noise, overflying, etc. I've no problem with IMAC leading the way with noise restraints, I just think that any rule that on the books should be consistently enforced at ALL meets, so that one setup meets all requirements.
just my .02 cents........
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glad to hear someone else agrees,i know alot of guys cannot afford to expierment with the latest technology..i think we are all depending on the Manufactuers recomendations on how to quite our planes(NOT GUESSING OR MIGHT WORK).I would like to see the testing results performed on Cactus or AI and even DA's web site with the products they are selling.i think it would free up their phone lines and would really help the rest of us out with inquiring minds.i agree,we need to quite these engines down,but when i show up at a contest with a 96db 150 engine,i dont want to be drowned out with a 102 db engine ripping in my ear.i guess i am more frustrated with all the talk and nobody enforcing the limits.we all have had a few years now to scrape up some money to invest in this,so why dont these web sites show us some of their results from testing??
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Usually, I try not to repond to rants like this, but in this case, I felt compelled. Are you flying in IMAC contests? Have you been flying for more than 1 year? I have noticed a HUGE decrease in noise at IMAC contests in the past year. Two years ago, loud, unmuffled engines were the norm. Now, I rarely go to an event and hear a prop rip. On the big airplanes, exhaust noise has been quieted with the use of cans in most planes. If you show up with a noisy plane, you are a bit of an outcast, and people WILL approach you to talk about quieting the plane.
The whole "get quiet" issue started when a pattern flier (who shall remain nameless here) submitted an Urgent Rules Proposal to the AMA forcing IMAC airplanes to abide by the pattern standards. IMAC spent a huge amount of time and effort finding an alternative that worked. At some fields, the noise is not much of an issue, so they choose not to enforce the rule. At other fields, noise is a BIG issue, and believe me, the rule is enforced.
Let's keep in mind that the point of the rule is to quiet the planes to save fields. I have noticed a dramatic decrease in noise over the past year. As for IMAA and the TOC. Completely separate issues.
Ken
The whole "get quiet" issue started when a pattern flier (who shall remain nameless here) submitted an Urgent Rules Proposal to the AMA forcing IMAC airplanes to abide by the pattern standards. IMAC spent a huge amount of time and effort finding an alternative that worked. At some fields, the noise is not much of an issue, so they choose not to enforce the rule. At other fields, noise is a BIG issue, and believe me, the rule is enforced.
Let's keep in mind that the point of the rule is to quiet the planes to save fields. I have noticed a dramatic decrease in noise over the past year. As for IMAA and the TOC. Completely separate issues.
Ken
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i have been flying IMAC for about three years now,i am currently flying a 3w 40%EXTRA with cans and a three blade prop and still searching for a little bit quieter set-up even though i am leagal.i agree,there has been somewhat of a decrease in sound but the fact remains that the rules are not enforced,that is the whole topic here.and as far as the TOC is concerned,that should not be a whole different topic.if it werent for the TOC,IMAC would not be as big as it is today,and certainly everybody wouldnt be flying 40%airplanes as much as they are today if it werent for them pushing it.i fly Advanced in IMAC and i still see unlimited pilots (well known)with outdated setup's and not even trying to get quite.all i am asking is why dont the contest enforce the rules that the sound task team originally set out to do.if it is up to the CD,then i guess i will have my back up plane with a stock set up so i can "rip" with the best of them.i would like to hear from someone who may be regional director their side of the story.
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Originally posted by rcplanefan
Usually, I try not to repond to rants like this, but in this case, I felt compelled. Are you flying in IMAC contests? Have you been flying for more than 1 year?
Usually, I try not to repond to rants like this, but in this case, I felt compelled. Are you flying in IMAC contests? Have you been flying for more than 1 year?
I've been flying IMAC for several years, and I don't want to feel that the IMAC "elite" side of any policy discussion is valid, and my side is only a "rant".
BTW, like I originally said, noise is a SPORT problem not just IMAC, and saving fields is imperative if we're to have a place to fly. I definitely agree that planes should be held to a noise standard, and mine will always meet that standard.
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In the NW region it's been made clear that we must follow the noise rules or the CD can ask anyone to land their plane if it is too loud. Three blade Mejzliks are standard on 100-150cc engines, and some have cannisters and are very quiet. I'm fortunate enough to have a quiet engine that can spin a two blade Bolly and still get 10's on sound. At the last contest no one earned a 0 for sound because everyone is doing their part to reduce noise pollution.
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Tim,
The question sounds to me like a "rant" when it ends with "tired of the non-sense." The sound rule has been enforced at EVERY contest I have been to since it was imposed last year. Every plane has been dB'd and the sound scores have been posted in every round. Our regional directors have made it clear that there will be NO contest in the NC region that doesn't enforce the sound rule. Which, by the way, I agree with.
It appears that you believe from my questions that I wouldn't consider his opinion valid if he wasn't flying for more than a year. Nope. But if you have only been flying for the past year (or if you don't participate much), then it would be hard to compare what you see now with what you would have seen before the noise rule was imposed.
I'm not sure who the "IMAC elite" are that you are referring to. Sure as hell isn't me. I have never even won a contest. I do participate as much as I can, but I sure don't see how that makes me "elite."
You are right about the noise issue. My home field in Cinci is considering imposing limits because of some complaints we have had here. I applaud IMAC for taking a lead (even if it was forced on them). I only hope that other large scale organizations look into it as well.
I'm out of this discussion.
BTW, it was good seeing you last weekend. I wish you and Pugs could have made Sunday. It was a nightmare weatherwise, but Kurt showed us all how it should be done in WIND!
Ken
The question sounds to me like a "rant" when it ends with "tired of the non-sense." The sound rule has been enforced at EVERY contest I have been to since it was imposed last year. Every plane has been dB'd and the sound scores have been posted in every round. Our regional directors have made it clear that there will be NO contest in the NC region that doesn't enforce the sound rule. Which, by the way, I agree with.
It appears that you believe from my questions that I wouldn't consider his opinion valid if he wasn't flying for more than a year. Nope. But if you have only been flying for the past year (or if you don't participate much), then it would be hard to compare what you see now with what you would have seen before the noise rule was imposed.
I'm not sure who the "IMAC elite" are that you are referring to. Sure as hell isn't me. I have never even won a contest. I do participate as much as I can, but I sure don't see how that makes me "elite."
You are right about the noise issue. My home field in Cinci is considering imposing limits because of some complaints we have had here. I applaud IMAC for taking a lead (even if it was forced on them). I only hope that other large scale organizations look into it as well.
I'm out of this discussion.
BTW, it was good seeing you last weekend. I wish you and Pugs could have made Sunday. It was a nightmare weatherwise, but Kurt showed us all how it should be done in WIND!
Ken
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Ken, no doubt we're on the same side of this issue, we BOTH agree with, and abide by, the sound issue. You are right about things being quieter even when self policed. I've noticed it also. I, too, hope the other organizations look into it, because I still feel it's an issue for all of us, not just IMAC'ers. Both my home fields aren't there yet, but I do try to make sure I don't do anything to lean them in that direction. You're right on the 'nuff said!!!
Yepper on that Kurt showing us how it should be done (I HATE that guy!!
Gotta burn more fuel and get more stick time!!!)
Pugs really enjoyed getting his feet wet, and I really enjoyed just getting OUT!!! I'm going to try to make the Columbus meet (and drag that Pugsley with me), and look forward to seeing you guys there.
Yepper on that Kurt showing us how it should be done (I HATE that guy!!
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Pugs really enjoyed getting his feet wet, and I really enjoyed just getting OUT!!! I'm going to try to make the Columbus meet (and drag that Pugsley with me), and look forward to seeing you guys there.
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drag me to it? Who called who to get them out of bed?????
Enough said.....
I had a blast. Can't wait for the next one.....
As far as noise....mine was only 84 db......so I think I have done my part.....lol
Pugs
Enough said.....
I had a blast. Can't wait for the next one.....
As far as noise....mine was only 84 db......so I think I have done my part.....lol
Pugs
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Yeah, Pugs, you sure had everyone else beat with sound this past weekend!
I hope you two can make Columbus. First class facility. And hopefully Kurt will be so busy CD'ing that it will distract his flying capabilities. NOT LIKELY!
Ken
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I hope you two can make Columbus. First class facility. And hopefully Kurt will be so busy CD'ing that it will distract his flying capabilities. NOT LIKELY!
Ken
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well, i must say 84db is very impressive,what is the set up if you dont mind me asking?also,to go to a contest and EVERYBODY hit at 96db or lower is very impressive.the loweset i heard at a contest is 92db off a 100cc engine.some of the basic to intermediate classes are still struggling to hit the 96db marks,not to mention a few above those classes.i did not meanfor anybody to think this is a "rant"...i think it is more "concerened"if anything.i'm glad that your region is enforcing the rule....have they turned anybody away for not hitting the limits??if an IMAC'er drives a great distance to your contest and hits a 98db,would you turn them away and tell them they cannot fly?just curious...
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FlyinBrian hit the nail on the head. The dB ground test has absolute zero relationship to the noise an airplane makes in the air. The noise in the air is what can offend the neighbors.
I can guarantee that if I pick the props I can make a DA-100 meet the ground dB maximum and rip the prop in the air. And conversely, a ZDZ-80 on the same prop will fail the ground test (because of muffler noise), yet be much quieter in the air because it won't rip the prop.
I can guarantee that if I pick the props I can make a DA-100 meet the ground dB maximum and rip the prop in the air. And conversely, a ZDZ-80 on the same prop will fail the ground test (because of muffler noise), yet be much quieter in the air because it won't rip the prop.
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Diablo, I definitely agree with a lot of what you say, especially that it's the flight noise that offends neighbors. You're definitely right that prop bark is louder that any exhaust noise (and carries farther). My feeling is that the barking is something the PILOT does, not something the plane does. That same prop you picked for the DA will bark whenever you want it to in level flight, but it won't on an upline when loaded, right? It's the PILOT that chooses to bark the prop, right?
I can't say, though, that the ground test has zero relationship to flight noise, though. Your example about the DA meeting ground specs and loudly ripping a chosen prop being louder than the ZDZ with the *SAME* prop is valid, mainly because the ZDZ *CAN'T* rip that same prop that a DA barks easily. Choose a prop that the ZDZ CAN rip, though, and it's louder than the DA since the equal barks cancel each other, leaving the ZDZ's louder exhaust note to decide the difference. Take prop ripping out of the equation either by throttling back, or choosing props for both that can't be ripped, and the ZDZ at ALL throttle positions has a sharper and louder exhaust note than the DA does at similar throttle positions. I'm not saying that it's offensive to everybody, but it's a fact that it IS louder. One friend of mine uses a Supersonic (I think) Pitts style muffler on his ZDZ-80 and the twin exhaust stacks on that muffler are larger than the stacks on my BME 102 twin (!). Needless to say, it's also a LOT louder than my BME. Another flying buddy has a J&A Peacekeeper muffler on his ZDZ 80 with the same size can as the other one, but twin stacks the same as on my BME (smaller than the other) and his ZDZ is noticeably not as loud as the other one, but still too loud to pass IMAC standards. It is also several hundred rpm short in power to the other one.
The ZDZ is a great engine. If I had one, especially for IMAC, I'd go with a tuned pipe (and avoid using props that it can rip).
If props for each engine are chosen that neither can bark, then the ZXDZ is STILL louder in the air, just like the ground test showed it would be.
P.S. I sure hope that fact that you let Pugs fly your plane makes him get off his BUTT and get HIS biggun together!
I can't say, though, that the ground test has zero relationship to flight noise, though. Your example about the DA meeting ground specs and loudly ripping a chosen prop being louder than the ZDZ with the *SAME* prop is valid, mainly because the ZDZ *CAN'T* rip that same prop that a DA barks easily. Choose a prop that the ZDZ CAN rip, though, and it's louder than the DA since the equal barks cancel each other, leaving the ZDZ's louder exhaust note to decide the difference. Take prop ripping out of the equation either by throttling back, or choosing props for both that can't be ripped, and the ZDZ at ALL throttle positions has a sharper and louder exhaust note than the DA does at similar throttle positions. I'm not saying that it's offensive to everybody, but it's a fact that it IS louder. One friend of mine uses a Supersonic (I think) Pitts style muffler on his ZDZ-80 and the twin exhaust stacks on that muffler are larger than the stacks on my BME 102 twin (!). Needless to say, it's also a LOT louder than my BME. Another flying buddy has a J&A Peacekeeper muffler on his ZDZ 80 with the same size can as the other one, but twin stacks the same as on my BME (smaller than the other) and his ZDZ is noticeably not as loud as the other one, but still too loud to pass IMAC standards. It is also several hundred rpm short in power to the other one.
The ZDZ is a great engine. If I had one, especially for IMAC, I'd go with a tuned pipe (and avoid using props that it can rip).
If props for each engine are chosen that neither can bark, then the ZXDZ is STILL louder in the air, just like the ground test showed it would be.
P.S. I sure hope that fact that you let Pugs fly your plane makes him get off his BUTT and get HIS biggun together!
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i hvae a da100 ona cap232 and want to start doing a few competitions but i am running stock mufflers and a 2 blade right now. i am sure that if i compete it would prolly be to loud. would goign to a 3 balde CF prop quiet the motor enuff to compete w/o having to tear into the plane for pipes?
chris
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