jkirby65

Hi everyone,

I'd like some suggestions. I would like to get a large glider (100") to use with a high start that is relaxing to fly and cheap. I don't need a super performer, just a glider that I can relax and enjoy. As I am moving and have little space and little time, I am considering an ARF (for the first time in my life), but don't mine building a relatively simple kit. I have looked at the Bird of Time ARF and the Art Hobby Thermic 2.5M. I am also considering the NSP Kestrel and the Big Bird from DJ Aerotech (both kits). I like the way the Big Bird and Bird of Time look.

Though I definitely don't claim to be an expert, I am not a beginner either. I have been flying electric aerobatic planes for several years, and have successfully flown two electric assist HLG-size gliders. However, I have never used a high start or flown a glider without electric assist. So, that's my experience and I would love to hear some thoughts/suggestions for kits/ARFs. Also, if anyone has an opinion on whether the Bird of Time or the Big Bird is better, let me know.

Thanks

JimK

forrest adams

build an olympic II - it's big, slow, thermals great, cheap, and easy to build. don't get an arf - be a 'real man' and build it yourself - you will get much more enjoyment from flying your own creation - btw, it's even better if you design it - but, few will go that far.

regarding the arf route, it's not that they are not good planes - but, hey, it's called 'modeling' isn't it - the building is part of the experience. ya know, there was a time when there were no arfs - i'm 52 years old and can easily remember that - when you went to the flying field, you displayed your creation for all your buddies to see - it was part of the 'experience'. i've been there, and also know today. 'there' was more satisfying.

good luck!

erich44

Mr forrest adams,

I only have this to say about your building vs. ARF's comment and that is: HEAR , HEAR.........
The build em yourselves usually fly better too.

erich
green air

zapper

Oly II will rarely let you down. it's a nice slow floater...another good choice would be one of the "Bird" series from Skybench Aerotech.....good floating to you...

BMatthews

Laser arts has a 110 inch Majestic that is sure pretty and looks like it would be a floater but still move out on command. Nice when the wind comes up. They also have a 100 inch Scepter that sounds pretty decent.

THe Big Bird is a Skybench model rather than a DJ Aero kit. Skybench also has the Oly II at 100 inchs with a rep for being a real floater. And the 100 inch Winddrifter that would also be a floater. And in the "little more work" department there's the drop dead gorgeous [link=http://www.skybench.com/slpartial.html#thermic]Thermic 100[/link] in either the pod and boom version or the built up regular fuselage version. Both are fantastic looking and use the NACA 6409 airfoil for some serious "hang up there motionless" floating ability thanks to the undercambered shape.

Balsa Steel

My Feedback: (3)

I have a Bird Of Time ARF and am very pleased with it. A standard Hi-start however, is barely adequate. I also use an O.S. 10 LA to launch it. It's cheaper than a Hi-start and takes it 3 times higher. If you have the time and the skill, the kit is lighter than the ARF, but if not, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with owning an ARF. I've been in the hobby for 35 years and have only built one plane of my own. If it hadn't been for good old Dad back when there were no ARF's, I wouldn't be flying now. Matter of fact, Dad even built the radios, but now even the "real men" just buy those already built too...

My (biased) nod goes to the Bird Of Time.

kamakasi

My Feedback: (3)

My vote is for the oly II.

SST

My Feedback: (2)

The BOT is too pretty to pass up. I have the 3m and 2m kits to build. Which one first? Decisions, decisions...

paulcarnes

You mentioned the NSP Kestrel which is a lot of glider for a built up two meter.

Paul

Huntster

BUILD IT!!!!! You still have time before Spring to finish it.

Build a Sig Riser 100. I built it with my son and we went with the 2 piece wing and spolers. The Spoilers work great. It's 2 years old but I haven't had a chance to fly it in thermal conditions yet. It is a very quick build and I miss judged a tree once and it took a beating with only minor cuts in the covering. This is one tough bird! Nice 3 Channel Bird (Rud, Ele, Spol)

jkirby65

Thanks for all the input everyone. I think I have narrowed it down to Skybench's Big Bird and the NSP Kestrel. Paul, you said something position about the Kestrel, right? Would you take it over Skybench's Big Bird? The Kestrel is $40 cheaper, which is nice.

BTW, I love building and have done quite a bit of it, but am living in a one bedroom apt with my wife--- she will just have to deal with my glider obsession though.

Thanks again!

Huntster

She won't have to leave the house for long.....It should only take a week to build!!!! HeeHee :-) I too have an adiction to building!!!! I can't stop! My wife is ok with it as long as I don't build inside the house. Thank goodness we have a Garage cause the glue doesn't stick well to wet wood. :-)

aeajr

My Feedback: (2)

Seems you have selected a glider.

You said you were not familiar with hi-starts. Perhaps this will be helpful.

LEARNING TO USE A HI-START

I think one of the reasons we don't see more people flying unpowered
sailplanes/gliders is that they don't understand how the planes are launched.
Once someone tells them about a hi-start or a winch, they shy away, again,
because they don't understand.

I LOVE hi-start launching my Spirit 2 meter and my Sagitta 600 2 meter and
even my 3 meter Airtronics Legend. It is such a thrill to see the plane climb
up to the sky then just silently float off the line like a sailboat. If I can
do it, you can do it! I find the hi-start easier than the club winch and I
get great launches. If I can do it, you can do it.

These links may be helpful for background about hi-starts.

What is a Hi-Start
http://www.labyrinth.net.au/~learmont/HiStart.html

Videos of actual hi-start launches
http://portfox.rchomepage.com/galler...pp3-launch.wmv
http://www.rcgroups.com/articles/lif...r/ava/Ava1.wmv

HI-START LAUNCHING - Getting Ready

First, let's be clear, what I will be focused on is NOT competition launches.
I am talking about safe sport launches. I am sure someone will comment about
maximum altitude and such. I just want to help you get in the air safely.

Second, if possible, get a coach/instructor if one is available and ignore all
of this. This is ONLY intended for someone who is unable to get help and must
learn on their own.

Third, your plane must already be well trimmed and flying straight and even
from a hand throw. If you have been having problems with getting good hand
launches, ask questions here. It isn't hard but there is a definite
techniques to it. Getting good at hand launches is important to good hi-start
launches. Fail to do this and the hi-start will turn your plane to junk!

Fourth and very important, make sure your tow hook is in the forward most hole
that your plane has. If you only have one tow hook location check to see that
it is a little in front of the CG of your plane. about 1/4" to 1/2" is a good
starting point. This will give you a more controlled launch than the more
rear, competition positions. You can move it back later, once you become
comfortable with the hi-start.

OK? We understand the goal here? Safe and gradual build up. Our goal is
control, not ultimate height! That will come later.


STARTING SMALL

I don't know what hi-start you have or how big it is, but if it is a "full
size" hi-start it probably has 30 meters/100 feet of elastic, usually latex
rubber tubing, and 100-125
meters/300-400 feet of line. There is no reason why you can't start right in
with this full size unit. However, if you feel this is an awful big thing to
handle on initial launches without a coach you can start smaller. You can
either get an up-start which is a smaller version of a hi-start, or take your
big hi-start and only use part of it for your install launches.

SHORTENING YOUR HI-START

Remember, this shortening step is optional.

To take a large hi-start and only work with part of it, we will reduce the
length of the line and elastic that will be involved in the launch. You can
cut the line, or replace it with a smaller piece during the training phase.
DON'T CUT THE TUBING! We want to preserve the tubing, or other elastic, as a
single piece as it will work better when you are ready to use all of it.. We
will just change how it is secured so we are only using part of it.

First the line. You can either cut the line, or buy another piece of line
that is shorter. Line is cheap and it can be useful to have line of different
lengths, so I will suggest you pick up some masons line, or any braded nylon
or Dacron line at any hardware store. You want something with a working
strength of 60-100 pounds or more. Nylon mason's line is typically around
135-150 pounds working strength. Bright colors will make it easier to find
the line in the grass. Mine are hot pink and hot orange.
You can also use 60-100 pound test monofilament fishing line for your 2 meter
plane but it will be harder to find in the grass than mason's line. I suggest
you make up a couple of 50 foot lengths. As we progress you can join them
using a know, or I like to use heavy duty snap swivels use for fishing.

To shorten the elastic I simply loop the elastic over the spike 2-3 times at
some reduced length. Works find

LAUNCH INTO THE WIND!

Always launch into the wind. Whether it is a sailplane on a hi-start, a
parkflyer or a Boeing 747, we always launch into the wind. If you are not
familiar with the importance of launching into the wind, you may wish to visit
this link and read the article on the subject.
http://www.rcezine.com/cms/article.php?cat=&id=43

For learning purposes I would say calm air to 5 mph would be a good starting
range. Gusty or swirling wind that changes direction a lot is going to
complicate learning. Once you are accomplished, these will be much less of an
issue. I have spent
whole days hi-start launching in 15 mph winds which can really help take the
plane high. Launches will be higher with a breeze than dead calm air.

One of the advantages of a hi-start over a winch is that it is easy to adjust
your launch related to the wind. When your plane is in your hand, check the
wind direction and adjust your pull back to be as directly away from the wind
as possible so your launch will be as directly into the wind as possible. You
can move right or left to adjust to a changing wind direction.


SETTING UP THE HI-START

Now we want to get to deploying the hi-start in preparation to launch your
sailplane. You are going to stake one end of the hi-start into the ground
using a 10-16 inch spike, large tent peg, screw in dog chain anchor or some
other method. Make sure the stake that you put into the ground is secure and
has a large enough washer on it so that the ring on the hi-start will not pull
off the stake. As extra insurance, you can also loop the elastic over the
spike for extra security. I usually do this.

If you start small, say 15' of elastic and 50' of line it will feel a lot
easier to control, and the launch will be lower and the energy smaller.
Again, just an assisted hand throw. We will use this length combination for
this discussion. Remember that I am assuming your plane is well balanced and
trimmed and that you can reliably hand throw it and control that hand throw
from your radio. (If you are not a master of the hand throw, put this down
and go work on that!)

If your plane is flying well from a hand launch and your tow hook is a little
in front of the CG then I am going to suggest that you launch with all
controls at neutral trim, or where ever the plane flies best form the hand
throw. Remember you don't use the elevator to take the plane up, the lift of
the wings will do that. In fact, as we will discuss later, if you have
problems with pop-offs, you can put in 3-4 clicks of down elevator to slow
down the rotation of the plane on the initial launch. Just don't forget to
take it out once you are off the hi-start.

If you get your wings out of level on the launch, the plane will tend to go
right or left when you throw it, just like a bad hand throw. Use the rudder
to get it back to center and work on getting a level throw.

It is easy to control the launch force of a hi-start by how far back we pull
it which will determine the stretch on the elastic and the energy of the pull
Think of a hi-start as an assisted hand throw. Do exactly what you would do
on a hand throw. Basically flat firm throw with level wings. The hi-start
will continue the pull to accelerate the plane giving the equivalent of a
strong hand throw. However as the hi-start will pull it faster than a hand
throw, it will start to climb. This is what we want.


TIME TO LAUNCH

Be sure your receiver and radio are turned on. Complete your range check and
make sure all surfaces are moving in the right direction. Now you can hook
the line to your plane's tow hook and pull back a distance equal to the length
of the elastic, 15 feet in our example. You should feel a pull on the line,
but should have no trouble holding the plane in one hand. I like to grip my
plane under the wings and hold it with the wings over my head.

Now, check to make sure all of your controls are working again. If necessary,
use your mouth to move the sticks and see that everything is working. Check
the trims on your radio to make sure you have not bumped them out of place. Do
this on EVERY launch forever!

Stand firm, don't walk or run with it, and just give it a straight. firm, flat
throw, controls at neutral just like a hand throw. Get your hands to the
controls on the radio ready to guide the plane, but don't over control it.
The plane should go out
just like a hand launch, only with more speed. It should naturally climb a
little. It should just fly off the end of the line. Let it glide out and
drift down naturally, just as you would on a hand throw, just further. Be
sure you have enough space in front of the launch to allow it to do this. You
don't want to have to turn on you first hi-start to avoid hitting things. You
just completed
your fist hi-start launch.

How did that go? If it went left or right, you tipped the wings when you
threw it or your plane is not trimmed to fly straight. Work on it at this
length until you go out level and true every time.

Build up the strength of the pull over several launches. Pull back one length
of the elastic. Launch from this until you are comfortable. Then pull it
back 1 1/2 lengths of the elastic. Make sure you are going out straight and
level. For a 15 foot piece of elastic that would be a 20-25 foot pull.

Then slide another 15-20 feet of tubing into the working area of the hi-start
and add another 50 feet of line. You are now in up-start range with 25-40
feet of tubing and 100 feet of line. The plane will launch higher with this
arrangement. You change nothing, let the hi-start do the work. Just don't
forget to get the plane a strong push/throw as you release it. Don't just let
go.

Keep adding elastic in whatever increments you like till you get to the full
length. Add 3-5 times as much line as elastic till you add it all back.
Again a typical full size hi-start is 60 to 00 feet of elastic 250-400 feet of
line.

How far back you want to pull depends on the make and diameter of the tubing
on your hi-start. If this is a commercial hi-start, read the makers
recommendations and follow them. In general, with 3/16-5/16 OD latex tubing,
pulling back two to three times the length of the tubing should be plenty for
your 2 meter plane and should not over stress the tubing. If you are using
bungee cord you will likely not be able to pull back that far as the cloth
covering constrains it and bungee is typically much stronger than the latex
tubing.

If you are using heavier tubing such as 3/8", 7/16" or 1/2", a pull of 1 1/2
times the tubing length may be all you would want to do with a 2 meter plane.
My
hi-start rubber is 1/2" and I only pull back about 1 to 1 1/2 times the length
of
the tubing to launch my 2 meter planes. At that pull I can barely hold the
plane. I measured it once at 14 pounds of pull which is stronger than needed
for a Spirit, for example. If you feel like measuring, a pull of 3-4 times
your model's weight is a good target, or 6-9 pounds for the typical 2 meter
starter plane.

Pop-Offs:

A pop occurs when the plane rotates so much during the launch that it releases
the line early and "pops off" the line. This can happen anywhere but I have
usually seen it within the first 150 feet of the launch. Pop offs can be
tricky to control. The plane may fly up at an extreme angle then stall and
want to dive for the ground. More often it will pop off and go into a loop to
the rear, behind you. If the plane starts popping off too soon, try putting a
click or two of down elevator on the trim before you launch. Also make sure
your tow hook is in FRONT of the CG. About 1/4-1/2 inch is enough. The
likelihood of a pop off will increase with the power of the launch due to the
rotation of the plane from level to climb, so let's get it under control
early. That is why we build up slowly.

As the pull gets stronger, the plane will fly out faster and the lift of the
wings will take it higher naturally. No need to throw it up, it will go up on
its own. You can launch the plane at a more elevated angle as you become more
comfortable with the hi-start and get to know how your plane launches. Up to
a 45 degree angle works well. Just remember that the steeper the angel the
more important the throw. Don't just let go, give it a good push.

I have over 250 launches with my Spirit, Sagitta and Legend. I launch flat to
25 degree up angle with neutral controls and the forward tow hook position.
My planes climb beautifully and I don't give up much to the winch, if
anything.

Using my smaller launcher (25' tubing and 100' line) I get 100+ feet launches
depending on the wind, without a zoom at the end. With the larger hi-start
(100' elastic and 400' line) I estimate I go up 400-500 foot launches
and can zoom off of the end to gain more height if I want.

Like you I was afraid of the hi-start. If you have someone to coach you
through the first few launches you would be fine. If you don't, try this
method.

If you want more information, here is a larger article on the topic with
photos, and other resource links.

How to use a Hi-Start
http://www.rcezine.com/cms/article.php?cat=&id=52

That plane was made to fly. Fly it!

If you are thinking about gliders, but don't have one yet, then this article
may be helpful:

Getting Started in Sailplanes
http://www.rcezine.com/cms/article.php?cat=&id=36

kamakasi

My Feedback: (3)

aeajr has it right start slow then work up. Leads to less repair and a higher fun factor.
One other issue is rubber size(strength) I have an extremely powerful Hi-Start for my Sailaire (hose monster unlimited) While I only put on the pounds appropriate to launch the Sailpig still likes to pop off. I went to a lighter tubing and while the pounds are the same the energy release is slower so now I have a plane launching nicely instead of one doing an inverted pass at Mach 2.

aeajr

My Feedback: (2)

Bird of Time really fits your request
3M, 2 channel, slow flyer, beautiful in the air. and at $120, its cheap
Only requires two servos and can be flown with a simple two channel radio.
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...&I=LXDUL9&P=ML

How about the Marauder froem MM Glider Tech.
RES plane, 3M, kit. I know you said you wanted an ARF.
Have a friend with this plane. loves it. Great spoiler set-up
http://www.mmglidertech.com/marauder.html

And for an easy flying plane of an easy transport and store size, I still recommend the 2m Spirit ARF $90
I like my sailplanes to have spoilers :-)
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXMK19&P=7

Spirit Elite is a full house 2M. Doesn't really fit your request but ....
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXAVR0&P=7


So, hope you enjoy sailplanes.


http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXMK19&P=7

forrest adams

regarding 'balsa steel'

"I've been in the hobby for 35 years and have only built one plane of my own."

I don't understand why someone would say this. Seems like this would be something you would not want other modelers to know.

aeajr

My Feedback: (2)

Forrest,

That is so funny!

Balsa Steel

My Feedback: (3)

crackin' me up too! However I don't post here to impress anyone with my skills or knowledge. Who draws the line on where "real man" starts anyway? I've owned a C-172 and a Cherokee 160 but no RV-6 owner/builder ever told me I wasn't a real man. I didn't mention that one r/c plane I did build won model of the month at the flying club I was a member of, but "Seems like this would be something you would want other modelers to know." (not)

I have the highest admiration for, and jelousy of the skills of a good builder, but you don't need them to fly.

aeajr

My Feedback: (2)

My kinda guy! I build as little as possible, and most of that is related to fixing and maintaining.

RTF, ARF, buying from other people.

Balsa Steel

My Feedback: (3)

Hey aeajr, to add to the irony of it all, I also do woodworking! But for some reason, my hands just won't make a plane. I actually did try to build another plane recently that doesn't really count; it was a foam ARF 3D plane and it looked like cr*p and didn't fly worth a hoot. (don't tell nobody, I have an image to keep) Seriously though, I'm going to attempt some kind of scratch built as a project with my Dad while I still have him. Something along the lines of a 5 meter glider.

aeajr

My Feedback: (2)

A 5 meter glider? I presume you will be laying up fiberglass. Or do you plane to do a 5M built up?

Big plane.

Balsa Steel

My Feedback: (3)

Look at www.socalsailplanes.com and about halfway down the page is a Paramount 2005. I'll bet that's a (big) beauty wandering around in the sky.

aeajr

My Feedback: (2)

Yes, that is a big cross country plane, but that is a 4.1 meter. a 5 meter would be over about 200 inches.

Balsa Steel

My Feedback: (3)

Yeah, I realized that when I laid my tape measure out across the floor last night... May not be as BIG as what I'm looking for.

aeajr

My Feedback: (2)

No parkflyer. That's for sure!