siclick33

Now that the P-20 has been out for a while, I think it is a bit of a shame that none of the big jet manufacturers have taken the opportunity to make a model for this great little engine.

I would love a BVM or C-ARF designed/manufactured model to suit this engine. The only models I know of that are available and being sold 'for P-20' are the gliders from Skymaster and PAF. The Stinger seems like the only other option (other than EDF conversions) but this seems to have been in development for forever! So far, the nearest we seem to have come is the Habu 32 with the conversion package.

Please, please, please can we have some jets specifically designed for the P-20?[8D]

k_sonn

My Feedback: (32)

I can relate to your pain. For several years the EDF crowd has been asking the jet manufacturers to do the same.Over the past severalyears, we have had to convert turbine airframes (which isn't always the best solution with heavy layups, smallish intakes, and extremely bad intake ducting) or old out of production glow ducted fan airframes. For the past few years, BVM seems to bethe only company with enough insight to see there is a market for airframes for both types of power plants. When the Electra came out, there was an EDF and Turbine version. The same is true for the F-86/Fury and Mig-15 arfs. I wish the other jet manufacturers would do the same.

Kirk

STKNRUD

Jet kit sales have been depressed badly for the last couple years. With the exception of the Ultra Flash, which really isn't a totally new kit, I can't think of any off the top of my head. Even longer for BVM but that is probably due in part to a comparative cost issue. How many "see what Santa got me" posts have you seen on RCU the last two years? If it weren't for the military applications for the turbine manufacturers, I suspect we wouldn't be seeing any new engines. The design work on the P20 probably started long before the decline. With the economy in the hole and the FAA threatening us, there hasn't been much of an incentive for anyone to spend the money developing new jet kits IMO.

Let's hope for some better conditions in 2012 and a favorable outcome to the FAA's NPRM which has been hanging over our heads for a couple years. Maybe then we will see some new kits.

George

I am sure there are some new kits...Tarus comes to mind. But it doesn't seem like there have been as many.

Henke Torphammar

What's your definition of specifically designed for P-20? There are alot of new composite planes that suits the P20 well such as Jetteng, HET, Savex, Schübeler etc. Must the plane be impossible to fly with EDF to qualify? I think the only way to sell alot of kits is to make the inlets large enough to house an EDF too.

Rich_C

I admit we have had some issues with getting the stinger produced, but we are now making them ourselves and shipping. We are attempting to ship one kit per week and we have a considerable back order to fill.
As we are making them ourselves now we have had to delay the next design which we have in mind which is solely for P-20 power.


Rich.

siclick33

The issue isn't really the number of models that you can use the P-20 in, as there are quite a few that are suitable with a bit of work. Maybe 'specifically designed' was poor terminology on my part but I would like more models that have been tried and tested, by the manufacturer with the P20, and can be supplied with factory approved tanks, pipe, gear etc.

Preferably these models would come from the respected big jet manufacturers. I have a JTM Hawk and whilst it should make a nice model, it has some design issues and is not in the same league as BVM or C-ARF. The Schubeler Hawk would be nice but I'm not into spending that much money and having to do my own R&D to convert it to turbine.

Kirk's post has hinted on a great solution. Get BVM to make a high performance 90mm EDF/P20 jet and supply it in both variants (like the electra), fully tried and tested, with all the bits in the box and a BVM quality manual. I think they could sell a fair few of those.

Dave Wilshere

CARF will never do a P-20 model, the moulding cost is not so different and material costs are only a small part. In my mind a small "mini" Ultra Flash is worth nearly as much as a normal size one. Unfortunately 75% of you live in cuckoo land! When I talked JetCat into doing the P-20 4 years ago they kept saying it will cost as much as a P-120 and I said fine, because in England there are people with a modelling budget for a P-120 powered turbine model, but not the workshop, car or flying site to suit. My sales of nearly 40 P-20's tell me that I was right. Unfortunately the hobby is in discount free fall, too many people don't understand business involved as "back yarders". The internet has destroyed the hobby market certainly in the UK and it will continue to get worse. The days of growth in the "quality" model coming thick and fast has gone, too many people think everything is over priced and they clearly have no idea. Maybe there is room for one or two companies making lots of models at tiny margins, but there are not enough sales to support the 12-15 now trying to produce and keep prices at a level expected by modellers.
The combined EDF and turbine route is the only way.

Dw

Euan

Are we forgetting we are modellers? how much work does it really take to modify an existing edf model? Dave i totally agree with you .Perhaps because its an edf model you may consider it to be sub turbine standard ? i have fitted / modified two models to suit the p20 one a Tams F16 and the other a savex l39 no major problems just some old fashioned model aeroplane building,
cheers Euan.

Vincent

My Feedback: (61)

I have a tams 1/12th F-16 converted and also did this RC Lander (all foam) T-33 for P-20 power. I wish there were more scale jets out there to choose from as the hawk and L-39 are not my favs.
Vin...

Boomerang1

I'm sure the guys that own them think the P-20 (and Lambert) are fabulous but for most jet flyers they are seen as
a bit of a novelty. How do I know this? Even my MW44's are seen as a small novelty!

I believe that most people who buy a turbine jet want a big, expensive, turbine jet, not a SMALL expensive
turbine jet. Call it ego, one upmanship, desire to show off, whatever. Despite their practicality smaller turbine
models don't seem to rate (except by the old farts at the average club who want to ban them as well).

At the same time EDF has advanced to the point where they equal the performance of the small turbines at a
percieved cost which is much lower. Lower costs, more popular, more sales, more demand, more models.
Every day they get better & better due to advances in technologies not related to the (small) hobby market.

My opinion? The P-20, good as it is, has arrived 5 years too late and too expensive to achieve REAL popularity.
I think P-20 owners better get used to EDF conversions. Wren 44 owners as well [&o]. - John.

STKNRUD

Dave,
I don't think the Internet has "destroyed the hobby market"...at least not in the US. True, there are a lot less neighborhood hobby shops but to the point, I think the Internet has made it easier for a lot people to get what they want from one source with more selection and at a lower price whether it is RC jets or RC cars. I think I am spending a lot more on hobbies and a lot of other things...books, computers, tools, etc. because of the ease of the Internet to get what I want. It may not have been good for some small retail hobby shops but I don't think it has destroyed the hobby market.

Regarding quality...I don't think anyone will disagree that what we get from China requires mods, is sub-standard or just junk. However, how many jet flyers would we have if there was only BVM quality and pricing? I am NOT promoting poor quality or defending the imports, but not everyone can afford the best. I have a BVM and would like more but I can't justify spending that much even though I would like another.

I like competition and choices. I think price vs quality will find its own "level". As with almost every product, some will buy junk, some will buy economy and some will buy the top of the line. And those who buy junk will forever complain if they have problems regardless of the product. There is no cure for stupid.

siclick33

If there wasn't a demand for ARFs then we'd still be building from plans with sticks of balsa

Different people enjoy different parts of the hobby and I get most fun out of assembling and flying high quality well-engineered models. I've lost count of the amount of money I've wasted by buying models and finding that they have design flaws and having to either spend ages making modifications or selling the model on as I'm not interested in re-working the problems. There are the odd successes (like the cheap Ducty which is great fun) but in the main I find that, more often than not, the better engineered models work out cheaper in the long run.

As for the P-20 being a novelty that may be so, but I have more hours on my P20 this year than my bigger models for a variety of reasons. I'm not sure how many Habu32/P20 conversions have been sold but it seems like quite a few, so my guess would be that the demand for this size model, at least in the UK, is there. Maybe not in sufficient numbers to make enough money for world domination, but surely enough to make a profit.

Dr Honda

My Feedback: (4)

This is the beauty of a P-20... they can go in an inexpensive model. The Habu 32 is a good kit, and it's only around $349. If the "Big Boys" started making kits... they would be +$2k for the air frame. So... If I'm going to buy a $2900 engine, and a $2000 model... well... I'm going to build a Flash. BUT... with a tiny engine, we can stuff them in $100 foamy kits, and they fly fine.

I was going to buy a p-20 for my winter project... but I couldn't swallow the price tag, so I got a Wren 44, and I'm putting it in a CMP T-45. It's a nice fiberglass fuse kit, and it was $145 to my door. I know there are a few flying with a P-20.

So... what am I saying with this?? Basically, there is no need to over-engineer kits for these little engines. AND... there are a bunch of nice 90mm EDF kits that can fly on the P-20 without any issues.

Vincent

My Feedback: (61)

I dont expect any purpose built P-20 airframes any time soon but also i really dont have a problem with converting an edf model. I would rather not have a sport jet (aka habu) and it seems like the only fiberglass models are hawks or L-39`s. I hear Horizon may be coming out with some scale(ish) edf jets suitable for P-20 but i have not seen anything yet other than the F-4 which i think is not really a good choice for P-20 conversion.
Vin...

Henke Torphammar

You need to google 90mm EDF before saying there are only L39 and Hawks :-P Even if filtering the heavy hobbyking EDF's and the ones with huge inlets there are alot to choose from. F-16, F100, A-10, F15, F18, Rafale, F86, Viper, Fouga, A4, Arrow, F22, SU37, Mig15, Draken to mention some.

P-20 is a bit larger then the Kolibri which also suites the 70mm range of EDF planes. (The comeing Merlin 35 is P-20 size and will push 7.7lb of thrust for the larger 90mm EDF's)

zacharyR

My Feedback: (5)

I think it's a money factor

there's alot of EDF plane's in the cheaper price braket , and doesn't make sense to compeat with them does it ?

niteflyer

And then there are us brain dead guys that hang $5000.00 worth of engines on a $250.00 air frame from Nitro Models............. Go Figure ?

flyinfool1

My Feedback: (2)

Give them time.
It takes a long time to design, tool, test, retool, retest, retool, retest..................... package market and ship a new jet.
You know how POed you will be if they skip the test part and rush to the ship part.

marc s

Indeed, taken 3 years for our Stinger to get to the full finished production point, admittedly we changed the scale and enlarged it slightly but it does take time.

The Stinger for those who have not seen it.... P20 drops right in, and the Merlin 35 will I am sure also fit nicely when it arrives ;-)

Video too from JP this year...

marcs

[link]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toj285WypV0[/link]

Henke Torphammar

Does the Stinger qualify to siclick33's strict rules? it does fly on EDF ...and very well too, better then on a P20 I think from the JP demo. Great product too strict siclick33 rules :-)

Pondus

My Feedback: (1)

One problem with the P20 is the fact that it's not a P35. Most of the 90mm edf planes that are new to the market are better suited to a slightly larger turbine, as most of them are setup for EDF's making considerably more thrust than the P20, a good 2.5-3kW EDF setup pushes 4kg+ these days and that's a lot more than a P20 will deliver. The Merlin 35 will be a much better match for most of these planes due to the much higher thrust it will offer. Smaller jets like a Aeronaut Panther is better suited to the little P20.

marc s

Thrust is one thing, efflux velocity (which is way higher in a turbine) in another - the P20 Stinger goes very well indeed, so does the EDF version but the P20 is lighter and benefits greatly from this.

The Merlin35 will push this Stinger along very very quick, for some too quick I would suspect, for many the P20 in this composite jet is way plenty a performance for thrill seakers, plus on 750cc of fuel you get a good 7-8 mins of flying......

marcs

Henke Torphammar

My rule of thumb: 1lb of turbine thrust equals 2lb of EDF thrust. Just as Marc says, efflux is the key. As soon as the EDF starts moveing thrust decreases alot.

Xairflyer

My Feedback: (1)

The reason you wont see big names producing a specific P20 size turbine model is they wont be able to compete with the present range of EDF kits out there. There are loads of chineese made edf jets out there under £300, the jet kit companies will want to charge double that.


As Pondus said 35 size is better and opens up a bigger range of models already out there at realistic prices, save your money and wait and buy the merlin 35 which will do everything the P20 does plus a lot more.

smchale

My Feedback: (67)

Can you explain that? Would 1 lb of thrust equal 1 lb of thrust, no matter how its generated? The plane doesn't know the source of power, it just reacts to the power. Granted you're lighter as you proceed thru a flight with a turbine. But you're not comparing thrust to weight, you're just talking static thrust in lbs. Right?