BlueBus320

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I am about to move to my first scale ship & must make a choice between a beautiful Phantom & a very nice Rafale Twin.
I hear the Rafale flies better, but am not exactly thrilled about dealing with the complexity of a twin.
Anyone have experience with both ???? Your input will be greatly appreciated.
Jay

RCpropo

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Jay,

The BVM F4 is a very nice airplane. Very fun to built, and very good plane to flight. Just save weight.

No big Rafale experience at this moment.

Regards,
Rick

yeahbaby

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Are you choosing between two already built a/c? if not, have you considered a single engine Rafale? Good flying bird. You can't lose with either airplane. Flown them both and both are great flying airplanes.

good luck with your decision, you won't lose either way.

regs

Buck

wojtek

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get hte Rafale single !! its a beauty !! and will fly a lot better than a F4 ..... its also built super strong for some high speed abuse ! [8D] ... im thinking of one myself right now ... P200 for power, however a dual p160 set up would be smokin hot !!!!


Wojtek

GEO-oNe

rafle

mr_matt

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Jack Diaz's Rafale with twin P-160s has to be one of the most powerful scale jets I have ever seen.

DavidR

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I have 2 Phantoms and 1 Single engine Rafale, I should have the Rafale flying sometime in the next 20 years! The F-4 is of course my choice but it is definetly a pilot's airplane. Get behind the throttle curve and it will bite you hard.

BlueBus320

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Yeah, I checked out the F-4 scale show at this years FJ & at the last superman &
WOW !!! It looked like Vietnam, Definately impressive. The two I have to choose from are both finished aircraft, One is my dream Phantom, & the other is a new never flown Rafale which I'll power with 2 P120s.
So I'm getting a serious headace now because I know the true answer is to buy them both, but I cant do that now.
Jay

JetflyerJ

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Go with the F-4 Jay

Johnny Hernandez

Flyjets

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Heli

Did you see Peter Weiss F-4e painted in his former planes colors?

It was the Isreal F4owered by a Ram 1000 that we had just reinstalled on Thursday she flew fantastic.

Ian

wojtek

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Hey Jeramine , .. call me


516 642 3653 ....



WOjtek

BlueBus320

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If you have a pic of Peter Wieses Phantom I'd like to see it !...I'm sure I saw it at FJ, but dont know which one it was.
Wojtec I'll call you as soon as I log off.
Jay

Jack Diaz

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Jay:

Your question is very difficult to answer with just a couple of words.
I have logged lots of flights with both airplanes, so let me try to point the main differences and particular advantages of each airplane.

-First of all, I have to say that none of them is a conventional model airplane. Both are very complex pieces of mechanical and electronic machines. It takes experience to make them safe and enjoyable. There is absolutely no room for error.

-Regarding the flying characteristics, both require the pilot to be used to managing heavy, highly wing loaded planes. Throttle management is a must.

-The Rafale is easier to fly since it has a much cleaner aerodynamics, but the F-4 is a lot easier to land. (again, all these provided that you do everything wright)

-Paint scheme: there are many more scale choices for the F-4.

-Power plant: If you decide to go for the Rafale, I would strongly suggest to go twin. It improves the chances of survivability in case of an engine failure. I would use two JetCat P-120.
I have 160's but detuned to about 25 pounds each (117K RPM) (except for a couple of verticals dedicated to Matt !!!! )
With only one P120 operating you will have enough power to make it back safely.
The F-4 will go fine with a P120.

At the end, the final choice is based on which airplane you like the most. You can't go wrong with either one. Both are among the airplanes with stronger "personality". And both will keep your heart at aerobics RPM's during your flight (and for a while after !!!!)

Hope this helps

Jack Diaz

wojtek

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Jack,

how long of flight times do you get with the 2 P160s ?? are you using only internal tanks ? or do you have your wing tanks set up wet ?



Wojtek

BlueBus320

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Wow Wojtec did we talk up Jack Diaz 5 minutes ago or what !!!
Hey Jack, thankyou so much for chiming in. I was just telling Wojtec that I talked you dizzy at the last superman. I definately think I'm going with the Rafale twin at the moment. I will power it with twin 120's & hopefully I can meet up with you, Shulman, or Tom Dogen for the first few flights !
I am slightly intimidated about bringing in a big jet without any type of a drag inducing devise other than the gear, but everyone tells me not to worry about that it will slow down.
I have no experience with heavy machienes ( infact bobcat & bandit is it) & my plan is to do the first few Rafale flights at a location with a long runway.
Jay

BlueBus320

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Hey I almost forgot, what happens if I put a P120 which I have & then purchase a P160 for the second turbine.
Then probably detune the P160, & I remember you telling me that it can be set that if an engine is lost you can hit a switch to go full on the P160.
Jay

wojtek

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man, i want 2 P160s now , and a P200 seems inadequate [] !! you people are a bad influence on me !! ... I am still curious however to what kind of flight times we are talking about with the 2 p160s and only the 5 onboard tanks +UAT ...



Wojtek

Bandito

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Heli-boy, I own the f-4 you were talking about @ Florida Jets. Jack told it exactly like it is... I have flown a Rafale and as you can tell I prefer the F-4. They are both killer aircraft and the landing is the biggest difference. I found the Rafale to be a great " 20plus degree landing plane, wish of course just looks awesome !!!! To me, the F-4 just looks flat mean flying and landing.... Good luck, you cant go wrong with either. They are fantastic planes. Ray Blair

mr_matt

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I also like the sound of that F-4 pipe, very distinctive.

I would say a P-160 running at high power settings is going to burn maybe a gallon in a 8 minute flight, maybe a bit less.

All I will say is check your fuel consumption with these big motors, not all motors and brands are the same, pound for pound.

Jack Diaz

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Hi Jay and Wojtek:

Flight time in the Rafale with the regular onboard tanks is about 7 min. I start the timer just before take off, and start preparing for landing at 6 min. It lands with enough fuel for any emergency go around or trafic pattern delay.
Don't forget that being such a clean airplane, it doesn't takes much power to fly.
Probably, flying in a non-event enviroment you can extend that time since you don't have to be so conservative.

Jay, your idea of getting a 160 and using it together with your 120 seems great to me. That's what I would do.
Two things:
-find out with Jetcat an accurate RPM vs. thrust chart for both engines, and limit the 160 max RPM in the ECU to mach the 120 thrust at 125K.
-set the 120 max RPM in the ECU at 125K !!
You will not be able to get max power from the 160 in case of a flame out though, since the RPM will be limited by the ECU. But as I said, one 120 is plenty for a safe landing.

Jay, the switch we discussed in Superman works as follows:
-You mix Throttle with Throttle in the Tmtr. with the Offset corresponding to throttle stick in idle.
-pick a switch that activates the mix.
-Adjust the proportion of the mix in such a value and direction, so as to Reduce the max Throttle value (at full throttle) to say 70%.
In other words, with the switch in, say, up position, Throttle will only go up to 70%. With the switch in down, you will have full power.
NOTE: don't forget to program the ECU with the sw. at the full power position. Also, switch has to be in the full power pos. for the engine to initiate the starting sequence !!!
-Now, you ALWAYS fly with the switch at the low power position (say at 40 pounds combined): "AMA legal for twin"
ONLY in the event that you loose an engine in flight, you go to high power ... 28+ pounds: again, "AMA legal for single"

Regarding the non existence of drag devises in the Rafale (with the exception of the doors), you are right. That is what makes this plane difficult to land. It's hard to be slowed down. But once you learn to slow it down thru the approach, it sinks with some power.

Hope this helps.

BlueBus320

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Thankyou all, I think I will be a Rafale pilot, but nothing is writen in stone until I buy it (hopefully Saturday). I think it has a more modern look that the phantom, but I will DEFINATELY own a phantom one day !!!
Ray Blair, I've been to alot of the jet events over the past 3-4 years & have seen alot of Phantoms fly, & for whatever reason yours sticks out seriously bro !!!
Ya did somethin right !
Hey Jack, are you here in the states or do you travel from Venezuela to all of these shows ?...either way I hope to fly with ya soon .
Jay

yeahbaby

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good choice bro'. don't be afraid to slow flight the bird amigo. it won't drop off a wing on you it will merely develop a high sink rate wings level.

MO, the key to landing the bird is using the delta planform to develop the drag for you. i.e. you should see more of the bottom the plane on final approach than perhaps you are used to. if the plane appears flat on approach you are potentially fast or overpowered which equates to landing long or taking a longer time to transition to the landing flare. neither of which are show stoppers once you get the hang of it.

have fun it's a piece of cake to fly.

c'ya

buck

BlueBus320

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Yeah Baby !!! Like the sound of that !
Jay

David Gladwin

Interesting post but my experience with my F4 is that it is a very honest flying and predictable aeroplane which does NOT bite hard when pushed. Jack is right , the F4 is a high wing loading machine, that means high airspeeds are needed, meaning higher drag meaning higher thrust. meaning higher fuel burn, pretty obvious stuff. BUT the F4 wing s basically a clipped delta with flaps and ailerons and with leading edge droop on the outboard panels (as was proposed for the "B" model Concorde) with a tailplane to control the whole thing. As is well known a delta does not stall in the conventional sense, the lift starts to decay progressively and the drag starts to rise markedly when past a critical angle of attack (alpha) . With the BVM F4 this seems to be borne out in that if you get slow during pitching aerobatics the model1s pitch rate slows but with no tendency to flick or depart into a spin, it doesn't bite but gives an honest indication that the aircraft is running out of steam . At high alpaha at low speeds the model will just develop a high sink rate, again with no tendency to depart from controlled flight so different to some models and full size jets. Recovery is easy, level the wings (those inboard ailerons work well even at high alpha unlike the real F4) retract flaps to max lift position and apply full power and go around. That is what saved my F4 on its first flight at FJ some years ago. Had the wing had nasty tendencies it would probably have flicked and spun. Benign and predictable as its high alpha peformance is one still need to be very aware of the F4s high thrust requirement and mine flies superbly with a Pegasus HPES with 36 pounds of thrust. A Jetcat 160 is also ideal but a Jetcat 200 won't fit. And, as Jack says, it is a delight to fly and straightforward to land but gets the adrenalin pumping.

The one aircraft that WILL bite is the T33 with its INBOARD leading edge droop meaning that at the stall the tips stall first giving the model a nasty tendency to spin at the stall, something which led to the loss of my T33 at Wroughton some years ago. . I believe that has been fixed on the AFS T33

David Gladwin

Tom Antlfinger

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Jay:

The sound of the pipe, the tip-stall resistance as David Gladwin outlined, and the in-the-air presence of what is the most beautiful-ugly fighter ever produced makes the BVM Rhino my choice.....Having watched David Reid, Vern Montgomery, Tim Redelman, and BV land their birds centerline with nose straight down the runway on big wind days is serious cool.....only plane that might do blowin' X-Winds better is the BVM F-100.......

I have seen a couple of hot sticks manage to get into some serious Pitch and Yaw PIO with the Rafale on windy days and narrow runways......

Jack D. does have a serious point.....a twin Rafale is definitely flyable on one engine....I've seen it done a couple of times.....unless you a good enough to save the engine-out Phantom like David R. did at Superman last year, you basically are flying a greased manhole cover when the fire goes out on the Rhino....


Tom