sportflyer-RCU

My Feedback: (35)

Would a Diamond Dust be an acceptable plane for this effort even though it does not have landing gear and need to belly landed on grass ? Tks

Bandito

My Feedback: (5)

If the sign off cd requires you to do the AMA sugested manuvers, I would not think it would be a good plane. I would not accept the plane for the very reason you just mentioned. Honestly, at least 40% of the difference in turbin and non turbin is in the landing characteristics of the aircraft. Scale may be even more, its sort of a matter of opinon. I hope some other Turbin Sign-off CD chimes in on this subject because this is my opinon as a Turbin Sign Off CD. I am ask all the time about this subject of an acceptable plane to fly for the waiver. I feel that the #1 choice is a ducted fan. I feel that the #2 choice should be a quikie 500 type aircraft,although it still cannot closely imulate a turbin landing. My 3RD choice would be a larger pattern type aircraft although again the landing end of it gets shorted. Ray Blair-SOCD.

F106A

My Feedback: (2)

Hi,
I bought a DD for the waiver, it's one of the few planes capable of getting over 120-140 cheaply. There's no way I'm going to spend $3000 or more on a ducted fan just for the waiver. I hate ducted fan anyway, I can't stand the scream of the engine and the fiddling that goes with ducted fan. I sure hope I can get signed off this year and get the waiver behind me, since I've got a turbine model on the board!
I hope that someday JPO can convince AMA to allow new turbine fliers 10 or so flights on a buddy box for turbine experience and therefore comply with the flight test part of the waiver. Just seems a little unfair to have to buy an airplane just for the waiver, especially if you're not going to fly it again.
Jon

sportflyer-RCU

My Feedback: (35)

I understand the ducted fan route as #1 choice, but after investing in turbine and plane , one would hate to spend more money on a ducted fan plane and then not use it after the turbine waiver exercise is done. Many of us are from r/c clubs that dont dont fly ducted fan planes so we can't borrow a plane for the waiver exercise. A Quickie 500 is pretty fast ( 120+mph) but with no throttle control , landing is always a dead stick affair. There is a big difference between landing on grass and on pavement! Many of us fly on grass fields , so finding nearby clubs with hard top surfaces to practice landing is not all that easy. There need to be some compromise to help us who would like to get into turbines.

DavidR

My Feedback: (1)

OK I'll bite and chime in. I would not sign you off on a DD. It just simply is not other than the speed anything like a turbine plane. It has a low wing loading and does not have any kind of landing gear. I want to see you do a smooth and controlled landing. I want to see a go around because it happens even to the best of us. I want to see that you have control of a more complex airplane that demands a higher work load than a 3 channel diamond dust.

I think the DF is still the best test of ability. Most of us flew DF before going turbine because we did not have the choice. There is no need to spend $3000 on a DF airplane. One of the guys I fly with just sold a ready to fly Starfire for $600 to a guy that is just getting in to jets. Why not look for a similar type of deal and get the expereince, I assure you it is a worthwhile step. If you don't want to go that route I feel like a high wingloaded warbird, or a pattern plane with extra ballast would be the next best choice.


The other alternative is to go with an airplane like the new BVM Sabre. Build it as a DF airplane, get used to flying a jet then convert it with a simple conversion kit. You then are doing your first turbine flights on an airplane that you are already familiar with. (You could substitute any number of other DF airplanes for the sabre, I just happen to think it would be one of the best.)

Regardless if you come to me with a Diamond Dust I won't sign you off.

David Reid

P.S. Why should there be a compromise just because you want to fly Turbines? Pay your dues like the rest of us did and prove you are a competent pilot. Chances are if you are an advanced enough pilot to fly a turbine you already have an airplane that is suitable for doing your waiver check ride(s) call one of the waiver guys on the AMA website and tell them the options you have airplane wise. Everyone is different, but we also have a responsibility to the AMA and our fellow modelers to insure that you are ready to be flying turbine airplanes.

lov2flyrc

My Feedback: (24)

Ditto here! A DD is not going to suffice for turbine sign-off as far as I am concerned. It does not prove to me your capable of handling a heavily wing loaded, multi channel aircraft. No gear, how do I know you can even land?
David is right on here, there are plenty of used DF aircraft on the market that can be bought for 800.00 or less and presuming you don't destroy the airplane in the waiver process you can certainly get your investment back when you have completed you sign-off (if you do destroy it, maybe your not quite ready for turbine?). I am more concerned with you being able to handle an airplane with flaps and retracts than the speed. Although speed can get you into trouble fast I have seen more guys have trouble with landings (including myself) than anything else, how can you prove you can land a plane on the centerline and keep it there with a DD? Can you get the plane into slow-flight and hold your approach?
Nope, DD wont cut it....Sorry!
Todd

JohnVH

My Feedback: (38)

Why not a fast propjet? F20, patriot, something along those lines, alot cheaper than a new Ducted Fan.
Worked for me

sideshow

My Feedback: (11)

With that attitude I wouldn't come to you at all. I'm sure there are gonna be a lot of people telling me that David is a great guy, and that's probably true...but his post is extremely condescending.

I currently fly IMAC type airplanes but want to to fly turbines. I found a local TCD and asked what he wanted to see. I told him I had no interest in DF's. He said GP Patriot...I bought a GP Patriot. He has been very helpful...with none of the "pay your dues" vibe. He let me hang out during jet rally, go through the start up procedure (his and others...including John Redmond), call for him...and generally get a feel for the whole scene. The scene out here is cool and unassuming...doesn't sound like that in Oxford.

Sportflyer, hook up with a TCD and find out what they are looking for and go from there. I'm sure someone in Indiana would be glad to add to the ranks of safe turbine pilots.

BTW....you can be damn sure I'm gonna use the buddy box for a while once I get a turbine in the air. How long? Who knows...as long as it takes to be really safe..not "waiver" safe. I don't want this to become another "waiver" thread. Moral of this story is find a TCD and do whatever he wants!

Bob

HotelSierra

My Feedback: (9)

I know this topic has been discussed many times in the past and everybody will have their opinions. Nevertheless, I think some of the best advice may never be "heard" because for one reason or another some jet newbies take the solid information of experience flyers as a personal challenge regarding their flight skills or threat to their freedom/or "right" to fly turbines. I personally have taken the conventional route, starting with propjets to ducted fans and now to turbines. And although I have crashed my fair share of all of them, I wouldn't change the route I took. The amount of experienced I gained at each level was extremely valuable to my piloting skills, the safety of my spectators and the conservation of my pocketbook. Hey fellas, this is not about egos here. Obtaining an AMA Turbine waiver does not make you a Top Gun graduate. Earning an AMA Turbine waiver is just the beginning and where the real learning begins. Nothing will replace the experience gained by logging those flight hours and it all begins with those high winged trainers. There aren't very many shortcuts in life, nor in full scale jet operation. So why start the short cuts now? The first & only turbine that I lost was in its 44th flight and the impact that it had on me was so emotionally and financially devastating that I had to go back to my warbirds and then to my ducted fans before I was ready to get back into the turbine saddle. Unfortunately for the many in a hurry, the lightbulb doesn't turn on until the first loss and then it's the whole "deer in the headlights.....oh, that is why........."

lov2flyrc

My Feedback: (24)

Yes John, F20 or patriot would be acceptable for turbine sign-off, but not optimal! Please understand, this is not an EGO thing! We just want to make sure you are capable of flying turbines. These are dangerous machines with the potential of killing, I want to make sure your skills are at the level needed to take on the added complexities of turbine aircraft. If your skill level is where it needs to be than the waiver process is a piece of cake!

Todd

DavidR

My Feedback: (1)

Sideshow,

Quite the contrary! Anyone that knows me knows I will bend over backward to help out the newbie jet jock. But you also have to understand that I take my responsibility very seriously to insure that you are a safe pilot before you get your waiver. I am glad that you have had the opportunity to be around other turbine pilots, and TCD's and that they have shown you the right way to go. There are no shortcuts here. Flying a model jet is serious there is a serious fire potential as well as the speed issue. I am sorry that you have no interest in a DF jet for many of us that was the only option years ago and we had a great time with them and learned to fly complex airplanes. After you have 400 or so turbine flights under your belt then look back and tell me what you think of this conversation. But until then whether you like it or not you lack the expereince to determine what the proper type of airplane for your waiver flights should be.


The GP Patriot would be an excellent airplane. As would, in my opinion a complex warbird with flaps, retracts, and a high wing loading. Take that same Patriot after you get used to flying it and add 2 pounds of extra weight, make it a lead sled and see if you can still land it like you have before. What about the lack of prop blast over the elevators? If you have never flown a jet you have never expereinced this either, and it does make a difference.

David Reid

jrocket

I fly an Avonds F15 ducted fan. Have been flying it for years. It has never gone 120 MPH not even in a dive. Now im working on a p80 powered F15 and from what ive been told it is never going to go over 120 MPH. Do I realy need to come up with a fast airplane to prove I can fly this turbine F15? I dont think so.

Would I be turned away and told to comback with a hotter sport jet/airplane to prove myself.

jetjockey

My Feedback: (8)

Guys, let me weigh in here with some recent experience. I've got 40+ years of modeling experience under my belt including pattern, quikee racing, WWII scale racing (180 mph+), scale, helicopters, ducted fan, competition fun fly, and lots of sport airplanes of my own design. With all that, I was still surprised when I made my first successful turbine flight two weeks ago with a BVM Bandit and a de-tuned JetCat P120. I thought I had everything under control and knew about everything there was to know about model aviation with all my experience and competition activities, but still found the turbine experience unlike ANYTHING I'd done before. In fact, I put a Euro-firebird in a year ago (cost me over $6000.00) by the time I finished replacing everything, so that was a REAL setback - took a year to recover and get back in the saddle.

What I'm saying is, there ARE NO SHORTCUTS in this turbine game. I'm still enough of a newbie turbine driver to remember that I also thought you experienced guys were pretty arrogant and condesending UNTIL I had a chance to get some time under MY belt. Man, what a different experience!!! I've now got 10 successful flights on my BobCat and I can't believe how different flying this machine is from EVERYTHING I flew before. I've not had a pucker factor like that for a very, very long time!!! It's beginning to come together and feel good, but will take a while before I REALLY feel comfortable with it.

There are three things that REALLY stand out with turbine flying to me: 1. The sheer effortless speed and power of the turbine - can sure get you in trouble fast before you know it, 2. The throttle lag time when you need power - especially on landing or a go-around, and #3. The need for constant throttle management - you CANNOT push the throttle up and keep it there like you do on recips - there's just too much power and the speed gets too fast. Already had a botched landing with a go-around - didn't have a problem, but was surprised at how long 3 seconds can be when you're hanging on the edge of a stall waiting for the power to come up!! A prop job thrust is instant, and you have air over the controls right away to help you - not so with a turbine - you have to wait until it spools up and it CANNOT be rushed. You just can't imagine how that feels until you experience it for yourself. The airplane is GREAT, but very fast and covers the ground very quickly!!!!! My BobCat weighs 20# and the turbine has been detuned to around 18-19# of thrust - still has PLENTY of power. I cruise around 1/2 to 3/8 throttle except for manuvers.

So, to you new turbine drivers, I know you're impatient to start flying turbines - so was I - but take your time, do it right, and save yourself a lot of money, frustration, possibly severe damage, or someone's life. THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS to this!!!!!! Take it from someone who's been there already! I agree with these CD's who are trying to give you good advice. You'd be wise to listen to them - they know what they're talking about. I know from first hand now that I've got mine in the air, and I'm just beginning to learn!!!

Hope you're all successful and enjoy the jets - there's just no experience like it, so do it right, and enjoy!!!!!

Best Regards, and best wishes from a no longer virgin turbine driver,

jetjockey

My Feedback: (8)

Sorry guys, I accidently said I had a BVM Bandit in my post - I don't - I have a BVM BobCat XL. Sorry for the mixup - it was a case of the dumb thumb (fingers in this case, I guess).

Regards,

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

Sportflyer - my best advice is that you find your local TCD(s) and talk to them about the aircraft type needed. The AMA has made some "suggestions" as to the types to be used (DF or warbird), but they have given some latitude to the TCD's in terms of both the aircraft to be used and the maneuvers to be flown - so if you take the word of one of the TCDs here that aircraft type 'X' is ideal, then go and buy it and present it and yourself to your local TCD he may well say "that's not suitable". So, save yourself the aggro, and talk to your local TCDs form the get-go.

As an example of the above - a couple of people here have said that an F-20 propjet is ideal. Unless there are multiple different F-20 propjet kits out there, I would have to disagree. The F-20 prop-jet that I've seen at our club (don't know / recall the manufacturer) is basically a pattern plane that has been shaped slightly like a jet. Nothing against pattern planes - I've had a few - but they tend to be very "neutral", extremely well behaved airplanes that fly themselves, float forever, and will almost never bite you when you abuse them. I'd rather see you fly something that shows me that you are flying the aircraft all of the time. (Again, opinions vary - I know of TCD's who will do sign-offs on pattern planes, and I respect their judgement.)

Note that the turbine waiver is a binary thing - either you have one, or you don't. That means that as soon as you have your waiver you could go fly a Super Bandit, Raptor, BVM F4, etc. It's not guaranteed that everyone who gets a shiny new waiver will fly a Bobcat, Roo, Hotspot, or other "entry level" jet initially before stepping up to more advanced aircraft. So, I guess that in theory your TCD sign-off should confirm that you are capable of flying an advanced aircraft that:

1) Has a high wing loading
2) Flies pretty fast
3) Is not inherently overly stable
4) Has a fair degree of complexity (flaps, gear, brakes, etc.)
5) Has no propwash over the tail surfaces
6) Has a lag between throttle application and aircraft response.
etc...

In practice, I (and probably most but not all other TCD's) will compromise on some or other of the above, but not all or even most. The degree of compromise will vary from one TCD to another, so again I can only repeat that prospective turbine pilots talk to the actual guys who they plan on doing their TCD sign-off with.

BTW, the reason that DF's are the number 1 choice of sign-off aircraft is that most of the above characteristics are inherent in a DF, though interestingly enough the "speed" issue that the AMA is so concerned about is often less in DFs than in many prop planes. (My old Byrons used to get lapped by the warbirds!) Also note that (6) can be simluated in a prop plane by use of "servo delay" if you are really that concerned about it.

Another thing to consider - if you ask me what aircraft type is suitable, I want to know whether you are asking about an aircraft you already own, or one that you intend buying just for the sign-off process. I don't memorise or even know all of the kits & ARFs out there, so there are some that I'm unsure whether they are suitable or not. If you have kit "X" that you think might be suitable then I'm quite willing to meet you and see you and the aircraft in action to determine whether I feel comfortable signing you off with it. If on the other hand you are talking about buying the aircraft in question specifically for your sign-off then I will be more restrictive in my choices because I don't want to have you spend money buying some unknown quantity that turns out to not let me adequately judge your flying abilities.

Re the Patriot - unfortunately it is no longer in production. Has anyone here seen either the Weston Magnum (with retracts added) or the Morris Tomhawk in action to know whether either of these planes comes close to the Patriot ?

I do hope that one of these days the AMA starts allowing "sign-off" to be done based on appropriate buddy-box training on a turbine trainer. Until then we have to deal with the current system.

Although there are possibly some exceptions, please bear in mind that most TCD's don't actually enjoy telling prospective turbine pilots that their proposed sign-off aircraft is unsuitable. I didn't sign up as a TCD in order to have some feeling of "power" over others - I did it coz no-one else in my area was a TCD, and someone had to do it ! We do want to see more people enjoying turbine flight. However, we have to balance that desire against the responsibility that we have been given - namely to try to asses that your current flying ability makes it likely that you can fly a turbine bird without posing a significant risk to yourself or others. So please try to be understanding and work with your TCD in finding a suitable plane.

Regs,
Gordon

sideshow

My Feedback: (11)

I probably won't remember this conversation after I get 400 turbine flights...thats gonna be a long time from now. I also realize that I lacked the experience to determine the correct aircraft for my waiver. The bottom line is that it doesn't matter what you or I think....only what my TCD thinks/wants. So I am doing exactly what he wants....no reason to make it more complicated. I also want him around later when I get the turbine up and running so he can help me become comfortable/safe with it. That's also why I am gonna buy the same airframe and engine that he has. I'm not gonna get a waiver with a Patriot and get a BVM F-4 and expect to safely operate it. My TCD also asked what jet I was gonna get first, and that helped him come up with the waiver aircraft. Interested people should be lead in the right direction, not spoken down to. The viability of this segment of the hobby depends on new people buying stuff.

After I get my waiver and can fly my turbine comfortably alone, I will remember what it was like to be on the outside looking in....I think some have forgotten.

Bob Convery

sportflyer-RCU

My Feedback: (35)

I too have over 30 years of flying all kinds of r/c planes except DF . I understand that turbines will be a different act altogether . I will talk to my nearest CD and discuss the type of plane that will be suitable for the waiver. I think what we need is a fast pusher plane , which would satisfy a lot of the conditions for turbine waiver.

jettset99

My Feedback: (7)

I saw a Guy flying a jet that got his waiver with a prop job, needless to say he could fly the plane but takeoffs and landings were a heads up affair for anyone around! to the point, he crashed and burned! I took the route by becoming a competent Df pilot then doing the check flight, and to be honest im still burning wildcat fuel. I own 5 turbine aircraft but I personally wont start flying them until the time is right, the above CDs are right, its a shame someone can fly a prop job and get a waiver ,not that they will be a bad pilot but they will lack the necessary experience to safely and confidently navigate a turbine aircraft threw all its flight parameters.

JohnVH

My Feedback: (38)

FWIW, I got signed off on a propjet, go look at the videos of my first flights, they were perfect.

Its all in the pilot.

And the TCD signing him off deeming him capable.

Bandito

My Feedback: (5)

Wow, what a great amount of knowledge came out of these " chime ins" Its obvious to me that all the TCDs are within a decimal of haveing the same opinion on this subject . We can hope the TCD that Sideshow is referring to feels the same way. Sideshow,please dont take my remarks as condensending, when you get your waiver your going to be real glad to know that everone had to go through the same thing. That means You have a better chance of not being hit by a turbine in the hands of someone who short-cut the system. The systems not perfect but its what we have...... Good luck and good flying.....

sideshow

My Feedback: (11)

I think that the notion that a waiver enables the bearer to be completely safe and competent with no further training is foolhardy.

I'm very lucky to be in an area where there are several Rep's and TCD's to learn from. I would much rather get my waiver on a propjet and get 15 to 20 flights (or however many) with my turbine on a buddy box than get my waiver and be on my own with my turbine and DF's.

I really think that the TCD's can be a huge factor in making evryone much more safe, especially in the area of continuing education. This is not withstanding the flawed waiver process. I am thinking that getting my waiver will allow me to get some very basic experience with speed, higher wing loading and complexity and allow me to get some real turbine training with a buddy box. I guess what I am trying to say is even though some (most) people have some issues with the whole waiver process, it did something that can be quite a boon to this facet of the hobby....it created the Turbine Contest Director. I'm gonna bug the hell out of mine until he teaches me everything!

Bob Convery

F106A

My Feedback: (2)

Hi
Does anyone know why AMA won't allow a new turbine modeler to fly X amount of flights with his turbine model on a buddy box with a TCD or instructor pilot and then get signed off? It would seem an ideal situation, the new pilot doesn't have to buy a special plane for the waiver and gets "real world experience" flying a turbine powered airplane. AMA benefits in ensuring that the turbine pilot has some experience and thereby (hopefully) is a safer pilot.
Jon

DavidR

My Feedback: (1)

Sideshow,

I did not write my comments to put anyone down or be condescending. I want to see you become a competent turbine pilot more than you can imagine. One of the main things I look for is the maturity to realize that even though they have 20+ years of experience flying model airplanes that they are into a different type of aircraft with very different flight characteristics. If you come up to me at an event I may not know you from the next guy and you are asking me to sign off to your abilities. I want to see you prove your abilities with an airplane that I think gives me some idea that you can handle a more complex turbine plane. I don't automatically assume that you will be flying a Bobcat, nor do I assume that you will be starting with a BVM F-4 but......I do know what is necessary to fly both of those planes because I fly them. I know there is a tremendous workload from take off to landing. I also have seen enough people behind the curve on a fast turbine plane that I feel like I am doing the best service I can to recommend a particular type of model. If I were doing it over again I would not hesitate to buy a DF plane and get the expereince with it. Les stated very well the differences and I will add one more, a jet looks a whole lot different in the air than a prop plane like an Extra etc.... orientation at high speeds becomes very critical and the DF plane with a little slower speed will help you greatly getting used to that.


F106A,

The JPO is currently trying once again to get the AMA to look into allowing buddy box flights with the Turbine airplane after the pilot has demonstrated some of the same basic skills for the current waiver.


David Reid

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

I might be reading your post wrong, but...

Sounds like you might be saying that because one guy who got his waiver with a propellor driven aircraft was underqualified, we should perhaps not allow others to get their waiver that way ?

Using the same logic for a mo - If I happen to know of one guy who got his waiver via DFs, who is underqualified and arguably unsafe - should we then also prevent people from getting their waiver via the DF route ? If so, now how do you go about getting your waiver ?

We shouldn't look down on prop aircraft - quite a few of them are actually harder to fly in various respects than some of our entry-level turbine aircraft. As an extreme example - have you ever tried your hand at a 280 cc 50lb 1/4 scale Lancair that flies at 240 mph and corners like there's no tomorrow ? Watch someone fly a tight, level, racecourse with that aircraft and then land it by cutting the engine up to 1/4 mile before touchdown. That means he's quite capable of flying that heavy, complex beast with no propwash over the controls BTW - and that is one of our reasons for liking a DF for sign-off !! Does anyone seriously want to tell me that a guy who can safely and repeatedly do the above is not qualified to fly a turbine because he didn't fly a ducted fan airplane first ?

I know that's an extreme example, but sometimes you need to use the extremes to show where the logical conclusion of a particular line of thought or type of argument leads.

My point here is simply that while the type of aircraft being used for a sign-off does matter, I don't believe it should be the b-all and end-all. It's the pilot's skill and experience that should really matter, and the type of aircraft used for the sign-off primarily matters IMO in that it must be sufficient to allow a fair assesment of that skill to be made.

BTW, I am one of the 2 TCDs in the area where Bob (Sideshow) lives; the other is the hugely experienced Chris Huhn, whose help will also be sought for buddy boxing Bob on his first X turbine flights. If I sign Bob off on his Patriot, and then Chris buddy-boxes with him and proclaims him incapable of flying safely .. well, I quite simply would never live that down - so you can bet that just because Bob will use a propjet for the sign-off, that certainly won't mean he'll be let off the leash before he's ready !

Gordon

jettset99

My Feedback: (7)

My comments are fact based on just one person ,and this person, at one time almost took out pit row! a well placed barrier stopped the plane at the last moment ,if you were their you would be looking at the waiver system totally different! Lets face it the best training is by ducted fan....(but allot of the same comments are heard over and over that its to exspensive to put one toghther just for a waiver, it took me 3 DF jets to finnaly get good enough to fly it anyway the cd asked ,lost a couple in trainning I dont think this excuse would hold up in court!) Lets push the topic a little further and lets for see what were trying to avoid with the waiver system! And that would be loss of life or limb,loss of flying sites,loss of equipment (aircraft).Again I'm not saying if you fly a prop job you wont be-able to fly a turbine safely ,just I believe you can't substitute training with a jet, with a prop driven aircraft.... try and rent a real jet and show them your log book with a 1000 hours in a 172.. I know of only one place that will allow this and thats the Microsoft professional flight simulator...