aquaskiman

My Feedback: (46)

I lost my jet 5/4/2005 it was a total loss of the plane, but I feel very lucky that it didn’t hurt anyone or do any serious damage. The plane was in a shallow dive when I lost radio contact with the plane. It was heading for a campground full of RVs the fail safe was set to hold every thing except the throttle. The plane went right through the campground and crashed between two RVs. They saw it and put the fire out by the time I got on sight. I am debating if I want the risk that goes with flying turbines. At two hundred miles an hour that is 293.3 ft a sec. or over ½ a mile in 10 sec. We are flying a missile; it could have just as easily hit one of the RVs and turned it into a fiery inferno. If I do decide to continue flying turbines, I will set the fail safe to a snap setting so the plane will kill all the energy and crash. Something to think about. George

HotelSierra

My Feedback: (9)

George, under AMA rules for turbine operation, it clearly states that your failsafe throttle setting should be "off" not "hold". I am glad that nobody got hurt or any personal property was damaged. Be safe.

Miniflyer

Of course you cannot be sure about everything, as eventually something will fail, but loosing radio contact sounds like either too little range or flying too far out (if no failure occured on the receiver/antenna). Did you do extensive range checks?
As you said, we are flying missiles, and these things are dangerous. That is why i double and triple check everything from time to time. A big range check every now and then is also on my to-do list with these. I want 300m range with the transmitter antenna down. Less than 200m and the plane stays down, no matter what. Also i periodically send in my entire HF equipment for calibration. Might cost a little extra, but is well worth it in terms of safety.
Check fittings, cables, screws, hinges and all else that can fail periodically, throw away batteries every 3 or 4 years on the receiver, and you pretty much have the most safety one can expect. Of course accidents do happen, and even if only the plane is lost, it always involves great costs, but that just is part of the hobby you have to live with. (By the way, you can also kill someone with a .40 size trainer. Would you quit the hobby just because of that fact?)
I hope you will stay in the jet scene, as this is really the greatest type of flying around....
By the way, my failsafes are set to engine shutoff, gear out, flaps down, everything extended that slows down, and rest of the servos to neutral.... but basically no matter how you do it (even in a snap-position), when its going down, its going to impact somewhere...

aquaskiman

My Feedback: (46)

No you didn't understand ,It was in the shut the engine down setting. All others were in hold.

sfaust

My Feedback: (11)

aquaskiman, sorry to hear about the crash. But like you said, you were lucky it didn't cause more damage, or loss of life. Man, an RV park! Ouch that was close. They are usually so tightly packed I can't imagine there was any room left for you not to hit something!

I agree that a snap configuration is the best way to setup the failsafe on any airplane. The jets are very clean in their design, and can still travel a long distance even if you shut down the engine. Flaps, gear, etc, is another way to help slow it down. But a snap is the best way to dissipate energy and almost as good as a set of mongo tires and a heavy duty brake The down side, if its a temporary glitch you may have just sacrificed your airplane from something recoverable. But I feel its the best thing to do from a safety point. Depending on the field I am flying at, I will either use a snap/kill if its surrounded by 'targets', or just neutral and engine to idle(gas) or kill(jet) if there is nothing around the field for miles.

Nothing is going to guarantee you won't hit something, but a snap setup will at least keep it closer to the designated field which has a better chance of having little around to hit, compared to something a mile down the road.

aquaskiman

My Feedback: (46)

Anyone that knows me knows that I check my planes over very well; I had a range check of 132 paces about 396 ft. with the antenna out of the radio and the turbine running. The batteries were new and checked before the flight. Turbines fly faster, can and do catch fire. Thanks George

Shaun Evans

Hi,

I'm sorry to hear about your plane. What was it?

aquaskiman

My Feedback: (46)

Hi Shaun
It was a starchaser; I bought it on RCU as a kit. There were about ten sold. I bought a starfire from you a few years ago and met you at ST George. I am redoing my starfire for the wren and should have it ready in a month or so.
Thanks George

uncljoe

My Feedback: (8)

George
I can related to your crash; 262 lost a wing panel (BitW) became a smoking hole No property damaged or injuries.....JMP T33 radio lock out ... another smoking hole ...... & two more 262's just normal carnage off the Ramp.....( 15 months) I have been fortunate all thoses wrecks and the only damage has been in my wallet.
Fly safe,Semper Fi
Joe

erbroens

Don´t give up turbine flying. But if you want to be absolutely safe, don´t fly any kind of model airplane. They can be dangerous, no matter it´s size or speed , even a foamie can burn down a RV if its Li-Poli batteries catches fire, But then you should not use a mobile phone because they have batteries too, or drive a car, or a bicycle, or walk in the street,or even leave your home, or etc.etc.etc.

This world was created just for us to play into. don´t give up the playing, and play safe!

Enrique

Miniflyer

Aquaskiman, what radio are you running? 400ft is a little over 130 meters......i would not fly with that range with antenna down, no matter what. Thats a bit more than 1/3rd of the regular no-antenna range with my radio, a graupner/JR system (around 1000ft). (Futaba goes just as far, maybe even a tad more than the graupner/jr).

Have you checked out the new JR website? They have a great how-to on range checks, improving range and testing systems....

Regards

aquaskiman

My Feedback: (46)

Mineflyer I don’t know what kind of radio you are flying but I do know that 132 paces with a JR 10X with the antenna unscrewed and taken out of the radio is very good link. This was the 26 flight at the same field. It also passed Lee’s swamp test. Thanks George

TimD.

My Feedback: (207)

Hi George,
Sorry to hear it went in . If you would like another let me know or if you need parts. What were your impressions of the plane ? Did the engine survive being located in the rear ?

Tim

John Redman

My Feedback: (8)

Hey George,

Just curious about one thing. You mentioned there was a fire, correct. If so then the engine had to be running when it hit the ground. If the radio was setup correctly, and I am believing it was from your statements, then you didn't have a lockout, something else occured. If the engine is shut down prior to impact the chance of fire is so low it basically never happens.

What brand of engine were you using?

If it was JetCat then if the ecu is salvageable we might be able to see what it says for you and get to the bottom of the failure.

freestyln

It would still ignite on impact due to fuel cells splitting and letting fuel spill over the hot turbine outlet/exhaust tube.. would still burn. I watched a Composite-ARF Euro come in with engine shut-down from about 250m up verticle at ground with mechincal vailure (think flutter not sure) and it exploded like a bomb when it came in. Was just cos it still have 2.5ltrs on board and the trubine was hot.

hanna

My Feedback: (3)

How close is the RV park to the flying field? Mike K.

Roger Shook

My Feedback: (19)

Sorry to hear of your loss!!! I was wondering if you were flying at Chatfield??

twist

Ive never flown jets, and I have very few crashes. I use big nimh batts and good futaba radio gear. Yesterday I lost radio control of my worl models 60 size spitfire. Was doing a low pass and the elevator suddenly pulled up, freaked me a little so I banked left to circuit and land. Once in the bank I tried to level and the spit just kept rolling left even with full right stick. For the first time I realised I had no control. Then It seemed like I had control cutting in and out as I attemted to get it back the plane started heading towards me. Too freaked to have any confidence in controling the plane anymore I chopped the throttle (which thank god responded) and let the plane death spiral to the ground. We walked out to get it and to my amazement there was someone walking their dog next to it. He joked about the plane being ok but the pilot was dead. I was thinking jeez didnt know he was down here and he could have had the plane hit him. Ive lots a plane to tip stalling (I fly mainly war birds) and ive landed hard once or twice, but its very rare and I know what I did wrong. But when one just goes..its...different. I guess just to fly we become little control freaks or we wouldnt be able to solo ever.
And when the radio gear fails for whatever reason.....its just very scary. It shouldnt happen but it does.
Ive got my 150 giant scale mustang almost ready to go. Now in kind of worked up about flying it, but I guess youve got to take the risks with the hobby.
Still I know how u feel, the thought of what could have happened and even though you have no control its you plane that could have hurt or killed someone. Kind of like you would probably feel after a car accident, a lot of apprehension. Just scary but you got to get past it. just my thoughts! ....Andy

Miniflyer

aquaskiman, i am running a Graupner/JR MC-20 together with a SMC-20DS receiver. As i said, 1000ft on the range check with antenna down as recomended by the JR website, and still no lockouts. We will be testing maximum range with antenna up before the season starts. I'm guessing with this configuration i will probably get ranges of a mile and more from all angles....
By the way, my manual states a range of onehundert feet with antenna down is ok.....i believe this to be fatal for a model.
For no antenna at all, around 400ft seems good, but then i do not know the 10X and its potentials / max range without model (I like to test this in comparison to an up-and-running turbine model to see the losses i am producing).
However John is right......by cutting the turbine you are basically nilling the chance for a fire. Upon turbine shutdown, the tailcone temp drops to under 200°C within a second or two.....thats just barely above the vaporization point. Self ignition can only occur with temperatures aroung 600°C or more, so the chance of a turbine that is off causing a fire is very very very unlikely....(LiPos or other things sparking: yes, maybe).
Hm, sounds very strange the way you lost your plane. Good luck with your investigations....

Woketman

My Feedback: (6)

Someone did some experiments years ago on trying to get Jet A to ignite with a hot turbine (was it Ray Davis??). He sprayed Jet A on the outside of a hot engine while running: no ignition. He stopped the engine and sprayed Jet A: no ignition. Bottom line was that it was VERY difficult to get the Jet A to ignite. In my experience, if the engine is shut down prior to a crash for even a fraction of a second (no more flame in the combustion chamber), then you get no flames at the crash site. This can be mitigated by a shorted battery due to impact, but that is quite rare. In a turbine, if there is a post impact fire, then 99 times out of 100 the turbine was NOT shut down prior to impact.

Silver182

My Feedback: (2)

George sorry to hear about your crash and the loss of your bird, glad to hear there was no person hurt nor any property damage!!!

Hanna and other friends,

Our model field at Chatfield State Park as of this year, (new RV camp grounds built 2004/2005) has changed dramatically forever! We've lived with full service camp grounds located about 1/2 mile to our North-West for many years. Our two runways are North/South East/West. We have had a few noise complaints over the years, and yes even a few crashes within the area of that North-West camp site. (no human or property damage noteworthy).

The BIG change and I mean BIG.... is the newest revenue generating project / camp grounds located directly to our West. Those camp grounds are with 1/3 mile, and directly in-line to the west our East / West runway! I have not had time to speak with George yet so I don't know which camp grounds were involved, but my guess is the new one.

More later, but our Beautiful model field at Chatfield....has changed dramatically forever as of this year! NOT directly because of Georges unfortunate accident, but because of exactly the same thing that happens to many flying sites full scale, or model flying sites.... people moving in all around, and way to close!!

We (Jefco Aeromod'lers) ARE going to have to change the way we use our runways / and Airspace that is for sure!! I hope it doesn't come down to closing the East / West runway permanently but it may!!

Regards,
Lee H. DeMary
AMA 36099
Jefco Aeromod'lers Safety Officer

aquaskiman

My Feedback: (46)

Hi Tim
There is nothing left of the plane, it disintegrated when it hit the ground. The good thing is that it through every thing out and most of the radio and the turbine are useable. I liked the plane a lot. Let me know if you are going to make another run of the kits. Thanks George


John I agree with you. I am not certain that it went into fail safe. I am wondering if a switch or battery connection. This is the first jet that I haven’t ran redundant switch and battery. I won’t do that again. I wanted to save the weight.

Hanna it was about ½ mile away.

Roger yes it was Chatfield, they built a new campground just west of the field. So if you are flying parallel to the E W runway like you are supposed to you are pointed right at it.

Lee it was the new campground.

Thanks to all George

Ray Davis

My Feedback: (1)

Several years ago, I did try and determine whether a 'hot' engine would/could ignite fuel. There seemed much speculation at the time, and I know that many have repeated a similar test w/ various engines, and w/ similar results.

Using both an AMT Merc and Pegasus, running at various speeds (idle and max) I both dripped and misted K-1 on/over the hot section/exhaust nozzle, into the immediate exhaust stream, etc. There was never any ignition/flame, only smoke. The only way I got ignition of misted/spilled fuel was to get some into the inlet while running...spectacular and highly unrecommended(!).....as yellow flame shot out the exhaust. Quite an afterburner. Again, this was w/ the engine running (on a test stand).

Immediately at cut-off (flameout) I could not get K-1 ignition by any method...I'd guess within a second or two, I was misting K-1 into the inlet/all over it. Just much smoke out the exhaust as it spooled down. (Same thing we see when there is a non-commanded flameout and the ECU/pump allows just a bit more fuel to enter the combustion chamber.)

Pretty safe to say that either the turbine was not shut down or a shorted power supply was the culprit (but those tend not to be instantaneous). Not to make light of things......maybe ya hit someone's lunchtime BBQ?! Regardless, it does really shake you up and set you back..and in many ways. I hope you'll give things another try; the fact that you are so aware of the responsibilities/possibilities makes you someone I'd want to keep at it!

Ray
AMT Field Rep

Roger Shook

My Feedback: (19)

George,
I was afraid you were going to say that it was Chatfield. I wasn't gonna bring up the situtation there, just curious. But since Lee did, I must say I have been concerned about that one North of the field for years, flying ducted fans before we all moved up to turbines. Not that the same thing couldn't happen with any model type. I am certain that things will change for the worse there at some point. My own reservations are precisely the reason I have not showed up there with my Hotspot to fly. We can all speculate as to the cause of the fire, I am certainly glad that no real harm came of it!!! Obviously we all need to understand the potential causes of these fiery crashes and do all we can to minimize the danger. I am very sure that (you) took every imaginable precaution to prepare your jet!!!!! Don't beat yourself up, people like you that care about the situation are what we need in this hobby!!!
Roger

Woketman

My Feedback: (6)

Lockheed Martin sent me to a seminar up at the Denver Deer Creek facility about three years ago. One evening I stopped by your Chatfield flying site. Wow! That was REAL nice. It is a shame that others are moving in so close. Hope you don't loose it, but it does not sound good.