Vincent

My Feedback: (61)

I just got this email from the AMA:

Dear Turbine Waiver Holder,



On August 12, 2007, the AMA Executive Council approved changes to the turbine waiver application process recommended by the AMA Safety Committee. To review the specific changes, please access the Safety Regulations for Model Aircraft Gas Turbines on our website or contact me for a hardcopy.



The following provides an overall summary of the changes:



Any past references to a notarization process, either explicit or implied, have been removed.



Waiver application process for fixed and rotary wing aircraft has been streamlined.



The renewal process for fixed wing waivers was removed. Once obtained, the waiver remains in effect unless revoked for cause or if your membership lapses for more than one year.



A process for temporary suspension was added to the waiver removal/revocation process. The purpose of this section is to allow a means to identify operational or safety issues, on an individual waiver holder basis, which can be addressed without undergoing a complete reapplication process.



These changes attempt to reflect the overall effort that has been made within the turbine community to act responsibly and to effectively police their activity. This should also help ease some of the current Contest Director work loads in the field as well as headquarter staff.



If you have any questions or comments, please do not hesitate to contact me.



Best regards,



Ilona Maine

Academy of Model Aeronautics, Inc.

Phone (765) 287-1256 ext. 251

Fax (765) 289-4248

www.modelaircraft.org

causeitflies

That's good news...

Ha, I just got my email too.

AndyAndrews

So they are no longer checking flight hours etc? I think the changes are good.

Andy

Eddie P

My Feedback: (4)

Flight time records are open for review, upon request by the AMA. It's a trust but verify occasionally thing I believe. Also the waiver suspention process is more clear and I believe set up to be used more often if I read the verbage correctly.

BRAVO AMA for these changes! I nearly got completely out of turbine model aviation with the hell and high water I went through to get my waiver. First, I get my qual flights, then I get an observation by a CD six hours away from my home, then the CD never gets around to getting the paperwork notarized. My 4000 dollar paperweight goes unflown for months while I try to get another flight arranged somewhere closer than 6 hours away. Then a couple amazingly awesome guys from Sac come to the rescue and schedule their time for me to finally get the dust shaken off my unflown turbine and get the waiver. All told, it took me five months to coordinate the debacle but in the end some amazing guys helped out.

These new rules make sense and are going to help keep this area of model aviation from ebbing away into memory for all but a few die hards. I really did almost sell everything and get back into gas warbirds and fast EDF because of those old rules.

figueroa

My Feedback: (22)

According to the complete document , a waivered turbine pilot still has to log all flights. And submit the data to the AMA upon request.

Pitts S1S

My Feedback: (9)

It also appears you don't need to have a turbine for your qualification flight. On page 2, it says to demostrate on a turbine IF a turbine is being used.

Sounds like it will be easier to get a waiver.

CARS II

My Feedback: (7)

Totally good news, congrats Ed.

causeitflies

It was never required to use a turbine for the qualification flight.

ianober

My Feedback: (12)

You should have come down to the Bay Area Eddie, Dave or Gordon Im sure would have signed you off in a flight, no problem!!!

CARS II

My Feedback: (7)

No need Ian, We, the AWESOME gang from Sac. took care of Ed in no time and he didn't even brake a sweat.

CARS II

My Feedback: (7)

Ian........ You are next, lets get it done Bro. [8D]

Eddie P

My Feedback: (4)

Carlos, you guys ARE awesome.

Hi Ian! It wasn't an issue of finding someone who would do it up here in the north (bunch of great guys here), it was finding someone who could do it on the same day that I could do it, as well as coordinate a turbine CD, and another guy, and the weather, and our schedules... - it was a recipe for frustration when you were only one of a few jet guys and several hours away from anyone else with a CD sign off! My location made it nearly impossible with the old setup. With the way it is now, I would have had my waiver in February of this year. But as it is, guys like Carlos really remind me what a really great bunch of guys are in this hobby. Especially the jet scene. A July waiver still got me some good solo flights for the season.

Billy

My Feedback: (15)

So if I understand this correctly, it means once you get your wavier it is good for life unless you let your general AMA membership expire.

Woketman

My Feedback: (6)

Or you do something stupid to get the AMA Police riled up at ya.

CARS II

My Feedback: (7)

Ed you are wlecome any time. we are at the shop with Tam building and having some green ones .

Edgar Perez

My Feedback: (13)

Regarding logs..

Is there a minimun required standard for log content? I don't want to be exposed to an insurance denail on the basis of my log content[X(]

Thanks

Ray Davis

My Feedback: (1)

For the Waiver Applicant, little has changed, and I think that is as it should be: Proficiency must be demonstrated as before, etc., etc.

It's Renewals where the changes and benefits are obvious: Waiver renewal is automagic w/ your AMA Membership renewal, so long as you are in good standing and Membership has not lapsed. No fees, no paperwork...though keeping a flight log is highly suggested. This year a separate, nicely done, wallet cert.....maybe just a notation next year on the Membership Card (TW?).

We have achieved these positive changes because Muncie has recognized our great safety record and the highly responsible operation of turbine models by the pilots....you.....and the professional manner in which our events are conducted.

Should be noted, however, that it was, and continues to be, the JPO that has long lobbied for this stuff and provided the pursuasive arguements for its implementation, w/ the rationale and numbers to convince. It would not have happened otherwise. If this is not proof positive that your JPO is working hard for us all, and that we are where we are today only because of the JPO Officers and particularly Steve Ellzey's efforts (JPO President) within the AMA Safety Committee and EC, then you are simply brain dead !

Join up.....we need the strength of your numbers...and you will sleep better knowing you are actively and financially supporting and ensuring your continued fun...and not just enjoying the fruits of a few dedicated folks behind-the-scenes labor ! Get started by going to the JPO site....

Ray Davis
JPO Rep, Dist I

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

I just looked at the latest docs, including the revised application doc.

Maybe I'm imagining things, but I thought that the docs used to say that the landing (not just the takeoff) must also stay within 10ft of the centreline ; now it just has to stay anywhere on the runway. [X(]

That will be good news to an applicant I know of who wants a waiver but always touches down at a 20 to 30 degree angle to the runway, pointing right at the pilot stations until a last-minute hard right turn a few seconds after touchdown averts an accident. Better yet, if he can take the test at someplace like Crows landing, the 8000 ft long, 200 ft or so wide runway makes passing this part of the test a shoo-in !

I agree with getting rid of purely bureacratic hurdles in the waiver process (or the turbine regs in general), but sometimes I can't help but wonder whether we're diluting the test to the point where it has little purpose.

If the intent of the waiver test process is to ensure a minimum skill set is met in order for an AMA member to be allowed to operate a turbine, then IMO we keep taking steps backwards.

There's already plenty b*tching going on about how N different waiver holders expect N different things from an applicant (just read some of the threads in the AMA forum), and IMO we are making that issue worse, not better because we seem to be moving more from the objective to the subjective. Bit by bit, we've been gradually taking out stuff where you could say "listen - I know you're impatient, but you have to be able to do XYZ before you get signed off, so let's go practice that, shall we ?", and instead relying more and more on the existing waiver holders having the cojones to stand up to their own buddies and say "Yes, technically you did everything that the tiny little test sheet calls for, but I don't personally believe you did it WELL enough, or SAFE enough".

Most people are naturally averse to confrontation, so I'm willing to bet that having a 'neutral' third party test requirement that "takes the blame" rather than it being a personal disagreement about someone's safety level, probably empowered more people to stand up when an applicant wasn't quite ready yet.

Now, I'm sure that several people here are already concluding that I'm some kind of elitist who wants to keep 'newbies' out. Nothing could be further from the truth - I'd be happy to see the majority of the AMA members be turbine qualified, as that would lead to some useful clout with the AMA, and help dispel some of the anti-turbine sentiment that exists in various sectors. I simply care that we bring people into this segment of the hobby safely and when they are ready for it, and I'm not sure that we're doing this right.

Thoughts ? Disagreements ? Molotov cocktails ?

Gordon

causeitflies

The best thing is that they did away with the notarization requirement. That was a pain for many as the test usually takes place on a weekend in the middle of nowhere and usually requires three separate sheets being sent in from the three parties.

Where I took my waiver flght I think more than ten off the center line would have been off the runway

Terry Holston

My Feedback: (1)

I agree the waiver prosess is stringent, and rightly so . But some times circumstances beyond our control will limit the number of flights one can get in a given year.
I am on my way right now to get my waiver renewed, as I didn't have the number of flights logged that were required last year for renewal when they asked (Randomly???) Due to lack of a finished plane and losing my mother the year before. I lost the one I had worked on for three years due to radio (Battery) problems after 6 flights. The renewal process has cost me 9 mo of anguish to get another waiver signed.........I sent my AMA and waiver renewal in the later part of Oct. Got my AMA in Nov and never heard from them about the waiver until Dec 16th. Timely manner???????

Hobby Inn

Ilona said "The renewal process for fixed wing waivers was removed." Anybody know about renewing the rotory waiver?

Eddie P

My Feedback: (4)

Go to the AMA website and look up the PDF documents relating to "Turbine" operations. The new docs show the turbine rotorwing application process still requires a Turbine CD to conduct the check flight.

Whereas, the fixed wing application process does not require a turbine CD, nor does it require the attestation statements to be notorized. Otherwise, it still requires a check flight after training - a CRITICAL section of the process still.

Gordon, you bring up a very valid point as far as quality control goes. It is now, more than ever, important to police our own rank and file and make sure we are all up to snuff on a checkout. However, what I believe you are after if I read you correctly are "standards and protocols", more than red tape. I could not agree more.

It was the red tape that almost entirely snuffed out my motivation to be a part of the turbine community. When it takes almost five months to coordinate a checkout, it has gone well beyond the absurd. When you kindly offered to conduct my checkout back in March, I already thought I had that box checked. I was a fool to say, "Thanks man! But I just got it done!" I should have taken five check flights with whomever agreed to show up and watch becasue of the process back then with the notarization, CD, remote location, etc. I hold no ill will over anyone, it was just the process that didn't mesh up well with a leisure activity like we have in RC flying. Now with turbine guys being able to take care of business quickly without trying to line up all the moving parts the red tape insanity loops like I saw should be a thing of the past.

But back to your point.

With the ability for a new group of guys to attest to new applicant abilities, I also think it is wise we have guidance and standards to follow. This already does exist in PDF form on the AMA website, everyone should review it before taking a test or presiding over one. Don't get me wrong, I think just about all the turbine guys I have met are clearly up to the task. We all have our own passionate hobby in the balance when we attend anyone's test flight. Maybe this is more of a challenge the JPO leadership can grab by the horns and provide some leadership on since they also led the way in the rule change. I suppose I should join up with the JPO now too.

Just like with anything, by being given wide authority to practice self policing, we are also wearing a noose around our necks that we should keep plenty of slack on. Let's not jump off any tabletops as we dance around in jubilation and snap our necks before we get a good look around first.

causeitflies

Eddie,
A waivered CD is still required for the qualification flight. That part didn't change.

Eddie P

My Feedback: (4)

Your are indeed correct. It would have helped if I actually read a little closer - being halfway across the world and jet lagged is showing[:'(]. That takes care of any of my questions then as far as signoffs, rules/regs. The same guys will still be doing the singoffs and that is OK but there will still be a really obnoxious bottleneck for the new turbine guy trying to schedule his requirements on the days off of over requested turbine CD's. I am still elated the notarizaton stuff has been deleted, that was just not necessary.

Ray Davis

My Feedback: (1)

As an Applicant, you want the Waiver...then you do have to make considerble effort, first re proficiency, then scheduling/coordinating a check out. In general, w/ the onerous NP signatures gone, I think the process is streamlined as it can be for the moment, yet remain cogent and responsible.

Written requirements are always open to interpretation and common sense...let that be your guide....rather than a rigid/cover-every-contingency book which would be even more highly criticized. Or, first have a conversation w/ someone of experience on both ends of the Waiver process...many, many, of us are here.

The JPO will continue to be the avenue for change....the AMA greatly respects our people and our expertise. They listen to us. But, we need your input, your help and financial support, and your numbers.....and your responsible flying....to remain in that position

You folks are obviously concerned and interested enough to be discussing this important stuff. But wanna actually make something happen? Then, why not join and become active in the organization that represents our prime interests here?!

Ray Davis
Dist I JPO Rep