rogers259

I want to start working my way toward entering Scale Masters. Im starting the research behind a Lockheed Altair, and thats going well. My question is this... How much detail should I be going into in the reproduction of this model? Are there rules that stipulate what is judged and what isnt in static? Any advice would be wonderful thanks.

Matt

pittsdriver

My Feedback: (7)

Matt, Go to Scalemasters.org and read everything on the site then join Scalemasters and get the rulebook and study it. Some qualifiers have a Novice class that you can compete with an ARF and that will help you with the flying a lot. Don

rogers259

Don,
I sent my stuff into Scalemasters last week and should be getting that back soon. I have read most of the stuff on the website. What Im not clear on is How detailed these models have to be. Is it one of those things that if it can be seen on the outside of the plane i need to recreate it. What about interier ie cockpit/cabin detail? I know that im doing rivits/panel lines etc on the outside of the plane I know the judges are only allowed to get to 4 ft when judging your plane and that they cant take into account wheel well detail. But are there other exclusions like these I should be aware of before I start building this plane?

Matt

Mr_Scale

My Feedback: (7)

The static judges do not take into account the cockpit detail. However, it may sway them a bit in craftsmanship points if you at least have some detail in the cockpit, bare in mind you must have a scale pilot. Think about it this way, if you are going to the effort of panel lines and rivets why not at least do some detail to the cockpit as well. The closer your plane is to scale, the more impressive it is. All other external detail needs to be included for maximum static scores. For example, pitot tube, antennas, access panels, etc. If you have any thoughts regarding competing at Top Gun, the craftsmanship judge can get as close to the model as he wishes without touching it. Again, the more detail, the more realistic, the better your scores will be.
One other note, just to be clear. To qualify for the Scale Masters contest you must compete in a qualifying class at a scale contest that is a regional qualifier. The classes typically are expert, designer or team. To fly in fun scale or sportsman is great fun and good experience but it will not get you qualified.

pittsdriver

My Feedback: (7)

Matt, The outline and color judges are 15 ft from the airplane so at a minumum you should do the details visible from that distance. The crafstmanship judge can get as close as 4 ft so details like brake lines, weathering, and yes the cockpit make an impression on the craftsmanship judge. New for this year is best scale cockpit at the championships. What it really comes down to though is what does it take to satisfy yourself. To me getting all of the scale details possible in the airplane is as much fun as the competition. There is great personal satisfaction at creating an airplane that everyone oohs and ahs over. So do the best you can and enjoy the experience. Don

rogers259

The reason im concerned over the cocpit detail is the particular model im doing has no surviving cockpit pics. Im concerned about laying it out correctly. Considering Im goin off a few structural drawings and a book that tells me which gauges were in each cockpit. I have nothing to document the cockpit other than these items and was concerned over that delima.

I was planning on putting as much into the project as I can. I didnt wand to finish it and find I'd missed a min. requirement.

Mr_Scale,
I do know that I have to qualify and need to compete in the ecpert class, and place if I want to get into the masters. I figure it may take me a couple of years to finally get qualified to get in.

Mr_Scale

My Feedback: (7)

You do not have to document the cockpit detail. So, if it is not exactly to scale, there will not be any down grade.

pittsdriver

My Feedback: (7)

Mr Scale is right on the cockpit documentation. Most cockpits are set up the same with throttle quadrant on the left and your Altair would have had a real basic instrument panel. Look at some pictures of similar airplanes and you'll get the idea. Don

rogers259

Cool thnks guys, just wanted to be sure before I really put this project into motion.

Thanks for the help,
Matt

Spychalla Aircraft

My Feedback: (34)

Matt,

I just qualified for the U.S. Scale Masters for the first time at the Mint Julep. I had flown some scale over the last 10 years, but this is the first time I tried the Scale Masters. There is no minimum level of detail. If you have less, then you will scale lower. If it is on your documentation, then it better be on the plane to score high. Build to your level of capability, and then just jump in. I think it better to compete and score low if need be but learn something, than to hold off and never get in the game. An object in motion tends to stay in motion.

Leo

fly109

My Feedback: (1)

All good replys. In particular, what Leo said is the key to getting an understanding of what is expected. Get in there and do it and take some experience home with you. I believe no one has built their own personal best model - they continually get better.
We have seen too many guys whose expectations of themselves is that they only want to participate if they are seen to be an expert, therefore never get involved at all.

Good luck.

Pat

ProfLooney

The tip i would give here is this. every goto the AMA site and get the pdf for the scale rules. they give you the required maneuvers and info for figuring out your maneuvers of choice. Then sit down and figure out how the full size plane flew and what it could do then take that and practice it every time you at the field. this will get you so you can do the maneuvers automatically without thinking. then enter some of the scale meets like stated above as novice and get ya something to fly so you get the experience and used to flying in a crowd. Remember you can always go up in class but never down so start as low as possible. meanwhile build the one you want to try for the masters with take 1 or 2 or 3 yrs to build it. in the meantime you are building competition skills. this way you wont rush to get the plane done and can add millions of details so you can make it the most scale thing you can think of. if it has a bug splat on the windshield in one of your pics and you want to add it do it. if its bird feathers in the front do it just take your time and add anything you can and want to make it look like a real plane sitting there. On the otherhand like with weathering too much can be bad too. but basically get used to competing at what i would call a junior level and when you are comfortable and planes ready hit the next level which would be expert class to be able to qualify for masters. also hit the AMA nats thats a great place to get a feel for what its like with more people there and slightly increased pressure on you.

These are only suggestions and each person is different but this would be a good way to prepare yourself so that you will enjoy it more.

Joe

foxx

My Feedback: (2)

Mr_scale
I think you might be answer this question that I have for many years, that is why in scale model or TOC competition you have put some silly doll in the cockpit to qualify. Planes don't have a pilot sitting in them when there are parked and they fly you don't see the pilot. In my opinion doll pilots totally destroy the illusion and give the model more a toy appearance than a scale down version of the real thing. I hope they change the rules or at least make it optional with no points given for having dolls/pilots

Mr_Scale

My Feedback: (7)

foxx, I understand what you are saying. To be clear, in scale competition you do not have to have a pilot in your plane during static judging but you must have a pilot in place during flight judging. When this rule was first implemented several years ago, it really ate at me. Over the years, I have just got used to it. However, my opinion of this rule is that it is merely for the spectators, not the flyers or the judges. So that while flying our planes it gives more of a realistic appearance in the air.

ProfLooney

Foxx the reason your plane must have a pilot is that in real life planes dont fly themselves they have pilots in them. now if you goto some big events and look the pilots most people use dont look like "Dolls" there is alo a place "Pilots by Diane" she makes scale pilots for people and sews the clothes for the era and country and plane your pilot is flying in. people dont get dolls there are a lot of places that make some really good looking action figures at scale. The Ultimate Soldier series is one and you can find them at walmart etc. goto my website here http://home.mchsi.com/~jahuntley/hurricane/hur12.html theres some pics of one of the scale pilots everything is fabric but the actual chute.

also the rules sate you cannot eject your pilot to parachute down due to the fact a plane cannot fly without a pilot. but if mine was out of control and going in i would eject him

Joe

foxx

My Feedback: (2)

Thanks Mr_scale and Joe for your explanations, the way I see it is that you can scale down any object and still make it look realistic whether it is a flap or rudder but it is impassible to scale down a live object such as a real pilot. When I was weathering my plane I realize how discerning our eyes are and how they can spot any thing that is out of place. Well these are just some observations. BTW Joe your pilot looks great you should see some of the TOC pilots, they are just plain scary.

rcrmel

Sounds like you are getting some great advice and you are starting off in the correct direction by asking questions. In an effort to help I would like to add that any thing that looks model airplane like will not score well. Example. Exposed control horns if the full size does not have them,also detail items such as door handles that are too large for the door etc is a common mistake.
Your documentation and what you show or don't show is key to your score. Many times competitors get upset when their airplane does not score as well as they think it should and all along it is how they have documented the plane and not the plane itself.
Good luck to you,be prepared to earn and learn your way through. It will be a very rewarding experience.
Mel Santmyers.

Thrushdust

Rogers 259-

I like most of the advice your getting here's one more tip.

Find someone (or more than one) in your area that already competes to "buddy up with". You'll learn a lot and you can both benefit from using one another as pit crew, caller, and roommates ($ savings) when traveling. You will also learn to know when your partner needs advice or traffic information and when to just "call" the next maneuver, and shut up. A second set of "trained eyes" during assembly or preflight can spot a potential problem and save an airplane from disaster too. Most of the competitors at the Scale Master/Top Gun level are willing to lend a hand to a "rookie" too, (until you start beating us anyway) don't be afraid to ask for more help.

Jump on in, the waters fine!

D. Hayes

(caller/pit crew for Mr. Top Gun '03- Jeff Foley)