ADSala

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Hello everyone,

This thread is a continuation of a Top Flite P-47 build started back in October 2003. I had taken a break for various reasons but I am now determined to finish this project. I have noticed a couple of other threads involving TF P-47 building and finishing. I have read these threads and they made me wish I did a few things different. Like the curving the tail tips on the rudder and stab. Peter went as far as installing the angled landing gear and adding a landing light. And Richard is doing a fantastic Flite metal job on his jug. I am planning on adding the wing tip lights though and more. Stay tuned.

Here is my original thread.
[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_1286126/mpage_1/key_p47%2Cprogress/tm.htm]Giant TF P-47 build in progress Part I[/link]

Here are Peter's and Richards threads. Others have added to Peter's thread with some great ideas too.
[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_2257933/anchors_2257933/mpage_1/key_p47%252Cmetal/anchor/tm.htm#2257933]TF GS P47 Build - yeah another bloody one!! [/link]

[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_2383762/anchors_2383762/mpage_1/key_p47%252Cmetal/anchor/tm.htm#2383762]Covering A Topflite 'JUG' with Flite Metal step by step[/link]

There is a wealth of info in them and some of the best talent I've ever seen.

Ok , off to finishing. [&:]
Dean Sala

ADSala

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I had a freind tell me the other day that he got an absolutely sharp finish on his knife with a piece of leather. I have found that cutting FM needs a very sharp blade. I would suggest using X-acto brand #11 blades only. Then sharpen them even more on a peice of leather before making the cut. Once I have layed the Flite Metal down ready to cut the panel lines, I swipe a little cutting oil on the lines. This has proved to make a very nice clean cut.

ADSala

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Here are some pictures of the wing bottom with Flite Metal attached.

ADSala

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One of the most difficult things with Flite metal is it takes on small blemishes, like scratches, marks, wrinkles and such during installation. I've dug around all over for things I can used to help smooth these blemishes from four color ink pen housings, to tissues. Look at a Sears craftsman screwdriver handle. It's got a very nice smooth shape at the end. I decided to use this shape to make a tool for smoothing out blemishes. It is mostly useful for smaller bad spots. Use a piece of thin acrylic or something. Heat it up and press the handle into it. Cut is out and you got a quick smoothing tool. Make sure to use soapy water or windex or something on the surface for lubrication.

ADSala

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Here is the almost FM finished wing top.

Peter_OZ

My Feedback: (1)

good luck with it mate and it is looking the goods
cheers
me

FliteMetal

Looking VERY good Dean:

I believe you have solved an issue which I have sought a solution to since we lost the resource whom manufactured our acrylic burnishing tools. I am going to investigate a method of replicating your finger tip hard burnishing tool in volume. The mother of invention remains necessity... Its funny you chose the ball end of a Craftsman screw driver handle for your mandrel. At one point after we lost our vendor for the acrylic burnishers I considered shipping a Craftsman screw driver as a substitute.

Your covering project is moving along well. It appears you have recognized the contact patch direction and quickly mastered the process of applying smoothly with little to no wrinkles. I suppose its because this is accomplished with the least amount of effort rather than a massive effort. Your hard "digit" burnisher seems to have provided a partial solution to burnishing too much because if you do...the "digit" burnisher will become hot... and uncomfortable so that tends to prevent burnishing too hard which creates wrinkles.

You asked a question earlier of Richard and he failed to respond. This was...if it was necessary to apply a clear coat when you are finished finishing your model. The answer is no if the panel to panel overlap is 1/32 of an inch per our instructions. An old ball point pen is run along the 3M Fine Line Tape perimeter just prior to cutting with a hobby blade. This seals the panel to panel intersect and leaves no evidence of the overlap itself as it is merged within the ball point depression of the panel line itself. Something else which speeds the trimming processes is the use of semitar or curved cutting blades .

The suggested use of this is to initially place the point of the blade into the intersect of two panel sides. Because you are using 3M Fine Line hard polymer tape it provides the firm edge against which a clean cut can be made. After placing the point of this blade at the intersect point of two sides of the panel...begin to draw the blade along side of the panel while gently lowering the blade so that the cutting surface rotates along the entire length of the blade as you cut then returns to the point of the blade as you reach the end of cutting that side of the panel.

This toe to heel and back to toe motion assures you don't dull the blade disproportionally during cutting. The blades will last many times longer than using only the point. As you already pointed out the use of Mineral Sprits (turpentine) serves to lubricate the blade, extending its useful life. The mineral spirits is dropped onto a cottom ball sitting within for example a peanut butter jar top...upside down if you don't mind... Its one of those how and not how much things which keeps popping up in this hobby. Hope I answered your question and I have been able to explain how Flite-Metal is quickly applied.

ADSala

My Feedback: (2)

Ed,

I highly suggest you find another source to make the acrylic tool. I use it for almost every panel.

I did not catch what you mean by contact patch direction. And this did not come quickly. I wasted a ton of material and time to get to this point. Thus the reason why I have ordered more rolls. There is a learning curve. You should offer an instructional video/dvd.

When it comes to overlapping the FM 1/32 then burnishing it with a ball point pen in hopes to remove the evidence of overlap. I have never been able to do that on my soft surfaces. Running the ball point pen down the panel line just makes the panel line look jagged. I did fiberglass the whole surface of the model. Although it hardened the surface quite a bit, it will never be as hard as a fiberglass part. So I have had to deal with softness. All my panels are butt joints or close to it.

I experimented with up to two layers of fiberglass and never got my surface that hard. I would not want to put too much fiberglass on of course because of weight issues. My model will probably weight out to 18 lbs fully loaded. That's pretty good for this size model.

I have tried the blade you suggested and again never got it to perform as you say. It would start to grab the metal. Probably cause of the soft surface again. So I stuck with the #11 blades. Plus you can buy them cheap in bulk. I use a flexible straight edge to guide all my cuts. I rarely use tape as the guide (takes forever) unless it is in a place where the straight edge would not fit.

I found that using a silicon lubricant is far superior to mineral spirits for cutting.

Using the digit burnisher never gets a chance to get hot. If I pushed that hard I would dent the surface. So you are saying the heat of the digit governs the amount of pressure you use. Clever.

You could also suggest using soapy water while burnishing too keep it cool. I hardly ever burnish dry. It mares the surface too much. Soapy water also prevents tearing when burnishing around corners.

You have obviously Flite Metaled way more models than me. I tried over and over all the techniques you suggested. This is just what I ended up doing.

Overall the Flite Metal is making my model look great. Thanks

Peter_OZ

My Feedback: (1)

Guys,
it really looks nice but I will stick to my spray gun and alum coloured dulon! I have been experimenting using cutting compounds after painting to glossen the paint up and get that deep shine that polished alum gives. While I will never get the results of FM I can get a bloody close approximation in about a bee's dick of the time and at a considerable savings in weight and cash.

Please don't take this as a knock on the FM product as it is not meant that way. It is without dought a superb product. Most of us simply do not have either a) the time, b) the patience or c) the skills to gets the superb results of Dean and Richard. I fall into all 3!

I do think that Dean's suggestion of an instructional video / DVD would increase your sales. The other idea would be to attend the big trade fairs you guys have like Toledo etc and set up a stand and simply do nothing else but demonstrate the techniques to the modellers first hand. This will give modellers confidence in the products. Teach them how to use the stuff first hand and once that skill starts to migrate out through the community it will spread very quickly as it is passed from one to another. Your sales will increase as a result.

Now my good wife has her heart set on a model of a highly polished T28 that resides near here so I may yet have to learn the FM black art![:@] [X(]

all the best
cheers
Peter

FliteMetal

Following the Flite-Metal application instructions assures a fast and effecient covering of a model with the least
amount of time, and material. It is important to draw the panels onto the surface of the model, then use 3M
Fine Line Polymer tape to mask perimeter of the panel to be covered with Flite-Metal. Unless this is done, there
are multiple issues of alignment and overlap which come into play as one moves across their airframe. Using a
ball point pen in conjunction to the perimeter of 3M Fine Line tape permits creating realistic panel lines.

This is not to say that there are other, if for that matter, superior ways to apply Flite-Metal to a model. In fact,
all of the application instructions which are packaged with each Flite-Metal shipment is a compilation of customer
application successes. For example, the typical Flite-Metal panel requires less than one minute to apply...most
are applied in a little over 30 seconds. Covering a BVM F-100 jet fuselage requires seven hours...or less. The
F-100 is a virtually flat surface for 95% of the fuselage.

Finishing a Flite-Metal covered model must wait until 100% of the model or model portion (fueslage or wing) is
completely covered. I personally feel the customer is all ways right when it comes to finishing Flite-Metal. If right
off the roll makes them happy...happy it is. If they are compelled to knock down the unannealed Flite-Metal with
300 wet dry, then 400, 600, 800, 1100, 1500... then they'll be rewarded with an ultimate realistic aluminum finish
which is literally impossible to beat. In either case, the customer is in control of their easy to control and effect
metal covering. Unlike paint...literally anyone can achieve a realistic finish with Flite-Metal because its the real thing
...aluminum.

As for realistic painted finishes Bob Violett's Metal Kote II is as close as paint gets to the real thing. I am and have
always been first in line to praise Bob's product. It is truely an amazing product. Beur Premium Plus Metallic paints
provide a better than decent (read as looks great) look...

if you want a natural finish (non-polished with medium sheen). Of course you have to "finish" the application of
these so they will replicate the real thing which appears within your documentation. Remember its all about
replication. After all, its scale we're out to achieve.

ADSala

My Feedback: (2)

I agree that after a certain amount of training you could probably turn out a fusalage in a day. And sure, after that, applying a piece could be less than one minute. It's the taping and cutting that takes the time. My wing took me about 20 hours. And the fusulage, well look at my last thread and check out the dates. I was working on it every night.

Ed,
I think you missed my point completely in the last message. I am not having anymore problems actually laying FM down on the surface. I have since figured that out. Working with a softer surface is the problem.

A solid hard dent resistent fiberglass surface is not a fiberglass covered balsa surface. Unless I put 4 layers of .75 oz glass on the surface, I will never get the hardness of a solid fiberglass part. Cutting and burnishing against a softer surface has been a big problem since the start. I could never push the pen on the panel line hard enough to make the 1/32 overlap disspear on my surfaces. And I cut through the surface in places.


The FM instructions seem to only apply for hard surfaces. And I have experimented on hard surfaces very successfully. For the most part every example I have seen with FM has been on hard surfaces. I don't know how to make a balsa surface hard enough where the instructions apply. I've tried Z-poxy, West Systems, and other surface resins. Surface becomes harder but not hard enough for dent resistence. The answer of course is more layers of fiberglass which means more weight. Too late.

All the other stuff (Polishing FM, Sanding FM, painting FM, making rivets in FM) is irrellevent at this point.

FM is a great product. I do not need convincing. My warbird buddy's eyes are going to pop out when they see this thing. No one in my club has done FM before.


Dean

FliteMetal

Covering a .6, or .7, .75 ounce to the sq yd fiber glass cloth covered balsa fuselage shouldn't be causing you any problem. By far we sell more Flite-Metal for use on built up scale projects than molded fuselage projects. Our soft burnishing tools were chosen for their ability to provide a broad yet gentle pressure point while burnishing. The hard burnishing tool or the gray end of the Sharpie which replaced it is only used for stretching and working into and around concave surfaces.

Flite-Metal does not have to be pressed down or burnished with more pressure than would be exerted with your index finger to simply press it down from the center outward to the edges of the 3M Fine Line taped off panel perimeter. Exerting greater pressure will mar and scar a model surface.

Earlier it was suggested a how-to video be made available. My daughter is a film producer and wanted to shoot a how-to back about eight or so years ago. I declined because following our application instructions seemed to satisfy our customer's needs. It looks like I am going to do a "finishing" how-to. This will focus on how our competition customers achieve their contest winning finishes.

There is a short learning curve required for the customer to learn not to overly burnish the surface. Its more how, than how much. For example, after a few minutes of practice, most people can apply Flite-Metal to a 3M Fine Line taped panel with little effort. 3M Fine Line tape provides the hard edge against which you cut the panel free. 3M Fine Line tape is designed to not stretch "easily". It will, but it has
to be forced to stretch, yet retains its hard edge against which cutting Flite-Metal is achieved easily.

Dean, I look forward to the day I can post images of your project within our customer section of FliteMetal.com.

ADSala

My Feedback: (2)

More progress made. I just finished flite metaling the top of the wing. But ran out of flite metal. Got more and started the flaps.

ADSala

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I took on a challenge of making some waste gates. Inspired by Richard. I got some of this modeling clay that hardens at 175 degrees. I am not a sculpture expert but tried anyway. I quickly put together a vacuum box and tried to make some plastic parts out of the hardened clay molds. It work! But I am not sure if this will be my final attempt. I may make a mold out of plaster paris using the clay molds then maybe make them out of fiberglass or make more vacuum mold parts. It's a start. If anyone is interested in the final parts, let me know and I will send you them in styrene plastic.

Peter_OZ

My Feedback: (1)

hey Dean, looks like a good way of doing it. the other way is to use a silicon moulding compound to create a mold from the clay part plug. Once you have the mold a simple mix of epoxy and microbaloons creates the part itself.

Dion makes all sorts of goodies with this method and I will be doing likewise. apparantly Dow Corning 3110 is good to use.

cheers
Peter

ADSala

My Feedback: (2)

I got brave and decided to try my hand at riveting. Small brass tubes with the tips sharpened did the trick. I gave the three brass tubes some handles too. Shown are the three books I have been using as references and the brass tubes and ruler. Small panels are easily done as well. Just cut out a panel in flight metal and lay it down. Use the pen to refine the lines. Comes out well. I found that the 1/7 scale rivet template seemed the most accurate for the small rivets that where used on the p-47. From the pictures in the book, there are rivets all over the plane. But I have not found a decent picture to show all the top wing rivet locations yet. Not sure if I really want to make all those rivets anyway. But it would look very realistic if you have patience.

Dean

ADSala

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Here are some more pictures of the wing. I've almost completed most of the riveting. Gun panels have what looks like screws so I used a bigger tube and spaced them out farther apart.

ADSala

My Feedback: (2)

Most of the time when I post pictures, they actually look better than the real thing. But in this case the real thing is starting to look better than the pictures. The Flite Metal has sort of an orange peel in some of the pictures. It's mostly from glare. It really is not that apparent on the real thing. I tried steel wooled on some of the panels on the bottom of the wing. The FM has really taken on a nice look with the steel wooling.

Anyway forgot to mention the 50 calibers. Well...I mean the large brass tubes stuck in the front of the wings. The GUNS!

FliteMetal

Looking good Dean. The rivets on the top of the wing make a real difference in the scale appearance.
Makes people wanna get closer and closer. You're doing an excellent job finishing out your airframe.
Looking forward to seeing it on its legs finished and ready to fly.

ADSala

My Feedback: (2)

Waiting on more Flight Metal, I decided to have a go at the wheel doors. There was a worry that the 5" wheel would not fit because they are too wide. Well I tried it and the 5" x 1.5" wide Dubro wheels fit in this Top Flight plane. Here are some pictures of one side almost completed. I think I will add inner doors too. For the door itself, I just fiberglassed a 1/32 piece of plywood. Ready for Flight Metal

FliteMetal

While you await arrival of your mail......why not explain to everyone how you made and why youmade your articulated gear door...


Also, before I forget...be sure to cover the perimeter edge of the wheel well sheeting with flite-Metal...

ADSala

My Feedback: (2)

Actually this door is really nothing compared to some of the stuff I've seen in RCU. All I did was what the supplemental manual suggested. [link=http://www.top-flite.com/techsupport/topa0415tech.html]P-47 retract door installation[/link] Apparently Robart upgraded the retracts for this kit to be more realistic.

Notice the aluminum door mount bracket on the lower strut. Robart sells these. I actually made my own with a 1/4 inch piece of aluminum, a metal cutting band saw, grinder, belt sander, 1/2" drill bit, 6-32 and 4-40 taps... go figure.

More work to be done. The smaller door still needs hinging and a few tweaks. The system needs an inner door too. I have been researching sequencing inner doors. I think I might start with the good old spring/arm actuation first. If that does not work I might use the [link=http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXCJE1&P=7]Tower Hobbies gear sequencer[/link] . Then use small servos to work the inner doors. The sequncer has two servo outputs that can be timed to activate different from each other. I would hook one output to my main air valve servo and the other output to two servos in parrallel. One servo for the right inner door and one for the left inner door.

I would like to make cleaner wheel wells too. Also, on the P-47 there is detail on the inside part of the doors. Not sure how I could build up the detail though. Mine are kind of thin. Not sure what my actual goals are here. This kit really is not to scale. I'm just faking it a little. But this door system is more realistic than just mounting a door to the upper strut. I like the fact that the doors are flush with the bottom of the wing. By the time it's finished, I hoping to visually hide the fact that the plane even has landing gear.

Thanks
Dean Sala

Peter_OZ

My Feedback: (1)

Dean,
best door sequencer is from Ultra Precsion in Canada. you need the U.P3 unit

check out the website [link=http://www.up-1.com/upthree.html]Ultra Precision - U.P 3[/link]

cheers
Peter

FliteMetal

Actually, before you invest in a sequencer go look at WWII photos to see if those inner doors are open or closed most of the tme.
Its interesting to observe if you keep that task in mind as you surf looking.

RWHorton

Very nice keep the post comming. By the way I would be interested in any part that you might make. I built the scale exhaust and I was wondering how I was going to make the flang part of the exhaust.

Great job.